haha, ya. ok well maybe i dont actually care if you think all vegans are stupid nimrods, but still, its like a reminder of the sentiments people feel towards vegetarians. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! its cool, i recoveredPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
What??!? You are saying since I am becoming a vegetarian, I am going to be a stupid nimrod like the rest of you ? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
dude, my total bad. I confused your post for elbaz's....i suck, later You're becoming a veggie, SWEET! thats really awesome! reading back through carefully, you guys/gals posted some really awesome things in support of vegatarianism that I didnt realize! Does anyone have some actual scietific data against vegetarianism? i wouldnt mind seeing that.
I will. DHA, docosohexaeonic acid. It is a fatty acid that is crucial for brain and eye development. In the past it was not considered completely "essential" because the body manufactures some, but the research that I've read (please do the web surfing yourself, it's out there, please don't post something saying yeah, where'd you read that malarkey?!) indicates that extra DHA is needed especially by nursing mothers and young children. It is not found anywhere in the plant kingdom except in algae, and you cannot eat enough algae to get this. It is present in small amounts in land-based animals, but it is in high concentrations in fish. This is one of the supporting theories that man may have evolved near shorelines, which are more mineral and nutrient rich environments, rather than in savannahs. A new vegan supplement for DHA is available that is extracted from algae. Here's another: Vitamin B-12. It is found primarily in meat, eggs, and dairy. It is present in some seaweeds, and algae. The liver stores a lot of B-12 that can take many years to deplete. There was a case of some vegans in the UK who (though their diet was not very diverse) were charged with manslaughter because their child died of malnutrition, most likely from B-12 deficiency. In John Robbins (author of the aforementioned "Diet for a new America") book The Food Revolution he hypothesizes that we used to get it from fecal matter or manure bacteria in fresh organic crops, but the industrialized world has washed most of that away from produce. This is not verifiable, of course, but what sounds more likely to me is that humans have always eaten enough animal protein to prevent this. We actually make B-12 in our lower intestine, but it all gets defecated. So I have read the vegan theories and literature, because I too went vegan, for about five months. I was appalled at what was happening in our society with the overproduction of meat and dairy, and the cruelty that animals endure. I lost a little weight, I ate a very diverse fruit/vegetable/tofu/grain/legume diet, but I had indigestion a lot. I found out that Latter Day Saints, who are vegans, suffer from this malady as well. As I also am into mountain climbing, I found I crashed a lot, and an experienced mountaineer told me that he found that almost every vegetarian he'd climbed with suffered from lack of energy and stamina. This is not to say there aren't great vegetarian athletes (Martina Navratilova and Jackie-Joyce Kerner, among others, I believe), and I've even seen pretty buff vegan weightlifters in magazines. I had altitude sickness back when I was a vegan, but I do not suffer from that anymore. I cannot prove that the two are correlated however. This is only anecdotal, I admit. But I do believe the bulk of science indicates that we evolved from and maintain good health from eating some animal food. So I began to eat fish again, especially after doing more research into diet and anthropology. I also incorporated eggs back into my diet, and now, only on rare occasion, do I eat fowl or beef, and I try to get it free-range, farm-raised and cruelty-free; it costs more at the health food store, but it's worth to me. I do not think that eating a lot of protein and a lot of meat and dairy every day is good for you. I posted another thread here about the danger of the high-protein ketogenic diet such as the Atkins diet. These stress the danger of too many carbs, which I believe, along with too much animal protein, is an equal factor in our public malnutrition today. But I don't think that we should cut them out completely, as these diets advise. We should end animal cruelty, absolutely. I also believe that the amount of beef that is produced is harmful to the environment and to third-world societies (who displace their own staple crops to produce more profitable feed grain) on a mass scale. Everyone should know where their food comes from. Everyone, at least one time in their life, to deserve the right to eat meat, should visit a slaughterhouse, take game, and catch a fish and eat it. I haven't done the first one yet, but I'm open to the invitation. We all need to understand where we derive life from. Some vegans think that it's cruel for even fish to suffer from suffocation, to die at all as a source of food, but that is just monumentally blind to the process of nature. Thousands of animals die by the claw and fang of other animals every day. We are a part of this process. We consume, we are consumed. If anyone's seen Ravenous you know the line: "Eat or Die." I found a lot of good info about the downside of vegetarian diets at a website called beyond vegetarianism: www.beyondveg.com I honestly don't think it's an organ of the meat industry, as it does not advocate any particular diet, if anything just a small amount of animal-derived protein. It has a few testimonies from people who were life-time vegans and fruitarians. This is not a Ted Nugent-type site, representing the kind of meat eater who would rather ridicule a vegan than engage in rational discourse. And no, I don't write for or get any money from the site. It's just the one place I've found with a lot of links that presents the most logical arguments. It also discusses the psychological aspects of diet guilt, as when vegetarians who do not quite make it to vegan think they are imperfect. I have a lot of respect for anyone who seriously questions any of their habits in life, and thinks about the consequences they have on their environment. Joeman, and to all others of whatever diet, I wish you good health and good journey. I appreciate any mature, calm replies or arguments to the material I presented here. John Le Coq
very good post le coq! I dont have much to reply to since basically it boiled down to you saying vegan diet isnt right for you, thats your choice, thats cool. bacteria in our digestive tract produces b12, so that is very viable that we produced plenty before we become OVERLY hygenic (over hygene is one of the greatest causes of basic illness as it is, we kill off all the GOOD bacteria along with bad bacteria - im still a hygiene freak though Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) DHA: ok, so its not found in vast amounts in the plant kindom but its there. I eat lots of (veg) sushi! as for indigestion, i only get that when i go on trips and end up eating a lot of legumes and nuts, as in too much. other than that i have a very healthy digestive tract (way healtheir than anyone at my work thats for damn sure...gross!). I have deeply considered some of the thing you've talked about. and almost decided to go back to eating fish for a little while, but to me i still see this as a selfish thing, since I dont feel ive read anything that shows i need meat or fish. I take supplements, vitamins what not just to be sure. all strict vegg's probably should...all meat eaters should for that matter too. but i think one of the biggest factors in health is that vegetarians are more aware of what they eat, and that could be a big reason why they are so much healthier...i have met vegatarians who only eat pizza, dumbasses. I really appreciated your post. edit: ps in case you didnt notice B12 was already talked aboutPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yes, nice post le coq. I did a little looking and found that DHA is an Omega 3 fatty acid. I remember talking to a nutritionist who said that Omega 3s are found in fish but also white nuts. Do you know if DHA is found within white nuts, at a level where you could get your daily allowance from them? -Xenu
From what I've read, no. Omega-3s are a class of EFAs (most of which are plant-derived), as you know, and DHA is the one that is algae->fish derived. Most americans are supposedly very deficient in all EFAs, as they shun plant-based fats for dairy, meat, and hydrogenated oils in processed foods. To correct an earlier statement about the beyondveg site, it does a fair amount of linking and seems biased toward the paleo diet sites, which advocates eating what cavemen eat, (as we are barely just a few thousand generations of genetic variation from our paleolithic past) which means mostly meat, w/ vegetables, fruits, nuts, and no sugar, grain, dairy. I've been considering cutting out more grains and dairy myself, so I may have to compensate with increased meat and vegetable consumption. However, there is available, (especially here in Colorado) free-range, grass-fed, humane meats. I will most likely still rely on fish for most of my animal protein. Sorry I missed the B-12 post earlier. John Le Coq
Humans do not have the teeth needed to tear raw meat. Humans cannot digest uncooked meat. What natural carnivore has to cook its food? All carnivores have an acid based urine system. All non-carnivores including humans have an alkaline urine system. Our nearest animal relatives, the silver-backed gorilla and the chimpanzee are both natural non-carnivores. They never learnt how to make fire and didn’t need to. Eating meat is entirely unnecessary for human health and fitness. Meat is now a dominant food for most humans not because it is necessary but because the meat industry is one of the most powerful and most politically influential lobbyists in the world, especially in the USA. Cow’s milk is the next most horrendous substance that humans can consume. It is presented as being a source of calcium but the calcium in milk is inappropriate for humans. The calcium molecules in milk will bind to existing human calcium and will exit the body undigested. The result is a net loss of calcium. Note also that the milk industry is also very powerful and politically influential. Vegetarian diets will not catch on until someone can make more profit from them. Currently the profit margins on fruits and vegetables are very low. Cris
So much posting since my little break......where to start. Firstly, My sincerest apologies if I hurt your feelings. But I have met vegan anarchist type people. One vegan girl in my class came close to attacking me for wearing a leather Jacket. But let me off with a warning...... And you know the anarchist mentality "Murder is okay if you kill the right people!" Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I have a friend who once admitted that he enjoyed the taste of human meat. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And no, he only tasted his own meat, and that was just mainly skin. Also, I don't thinking eating something because it tastes good is greedy. I could say your greedy for murdering vegetables, or fruits that animals need to survive. Or destroying their habitat with your uncontrolled love of Soya products. Or maybe that you greedily chop down innocent trees to build your house. It's all a matter of how you percieve it. It may seem greedy and evil to you, but I've been Sharing my insanity with innocent animals since my youth, and have never regretted it. How can any action be evil if it's bound to produce some form of goodness? You see why eating meat isn't evil to all people? Simply because they realize, just as le coq pointed out, that you need some meat to fulfill your evolutionary needs or specific nutrients. it seems almost pointless to go searching the net for miniscule chemicals that exist in meat and not vegetarian type food. We both know that the two are chemically different and have their benefits. I still respect anyone who want's to live that kind of a life. It just seem misguided that some people do it for reasons other than their health. That's terrible. I can guarantee you though, my meat producers aren't that cruel. But is that the only thing stopping you from eating meat? The way the animals are treated. If animals were treated like royalty before we killed them, might you be inclined to eat one? No, not to my knowledge. I've been told that they kill the animals instantaneously, and then drain the blood for hygenic purposes. If theres any evidence that the animal suffered, the meat is deemed unKosher, chopped up, and chucked into the feed tray so as to provide nourishment to the other animals Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!D No, they just chuck the animal. Theres absolutely no cannibalism involved.) How so? I think there as relevant today as they were a few years ago. You can still live a healthy life without out it, but not quite as healthy as taking meat consumption with moderation. Now way. I can't see how that wouldn't be an isolated case. The proper authorities would never tolerate that. And the general public wouldn't either. Sometimes, for various scavenging carnivores, the food has to rot, basically breaking down the meat partly, just as cooking does. Proof enough? Sometimes pure digestion is just too inneficient for it's purposes. I agree, I never personally liked milk. But I'll argue that it's very useful. For example, in world war 2, soldiers were actually given chocolate on the field to keep them going. Especially in red cross packages. Sometimes you just need that extra boost. Humans have the capability to use those types of things to their advantage. And in isolated cases, it can be very useful. To sum it up, I don't mean to offend or insult anyone. I've always tried to show respect to everyone since that's what I expect back. Meat has in our past been a very neccessary part to our survival, and I don't think we should just throw it completely out of our diets out of sympathy for animals we've been killing throughout thousands of years.
Without exception, all of the healthy elderly people I have met in my life ate well-balanced meals which included meat in moderation.
Members of my family generally live to 90+, and all eat meat and just about everything else. We eat whatever, we drink, et cetera.
Well like I said, the only meat eaters that I judge are the fat slovenly ones killing themselves over a hamburger. I definitely recognize that EVERYONE thinks what they are doing is right, while more than likely NO one has a friggin clue(hehe). Eating meat is wrong in my eyes, I'm not going around judging everyone for it though. And the last statements seems odd, evil ALMOST always produces good for someone...right?...eye of the beholder. I believe we could argue this point to death, and no one would come out any wiser. I see what I see, and after reading a vast amount of medical literature I have decided that being a vegan is the healthiest diet I could choose. I would love it if you showed me a serious study that said otherwise, I'm not gonna shut my eyes and ears and hum or anything ( a study that says avoiding meat is bad for a person). I would raise my own animals and eat their products (say the occasional egg), but I seriously doubt I would be able to eat the actual animal (at this point in my life anyways, I just 'feel' too much for them right now. yes i know im a fkn sissyPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ) besides, yet again why eat the animal if I feel that not eating them is a healthier choice. While PETA does seem to have a lot of 'sway' lately (with all the corporations bowing to their demands), the public still does not really give a damn what is going on behind the closed doors of a slaughter house or egg farm. If they did they might raise some questions about those chicken trucks on the road. I mean, you see this often enough, with their super packed in chickens, one on top of another on another. Yet it seems to me, even with this right in there face, the public still chooses to ignore it. Funny story, Me, another vegan, and two of my meat eating friends were in my car. I drove by this chicken truck at a parking lot, and decided to stop and have a look see. The meat eaters actually got really pissed off at me, the DID NOT WANT TO SEE THAT. People do not want their daily lives interupted, and they could generally care less about the life of a chicken. thank you for the semi apology, and for the post. agree to disagree I guess? I think your skirting the issue that eating meat is wrong because animals are feeling, sentient beinds, by using the excuse that humans have been eating it throughout history. There are so many things that occured in history that are not good things. It all depends on your ethical standpoint of course, but It's hard for me to say killing a human is truly any worse ethically than killing a pig (unless of course you are a hardline christian who thinks god gave use this world and all the living things on it to use however we see fit, hahahaha, I think its impossible for me to respect that). Whenever people say things like this 'well my relative lived to 168 years old and ate only bacon', it does not prove anything. I could easily retort that, well heart disease is the number one killer over here in good ol US of A, and is very much linked to red meat and fatty meats of any kind. So one person survived that diet, big deal, I think I'd much rather take my chances with a healthier diet. Most of the studies I have seen say meat eaters compared to non meat eaters are healthier, same for dairy. Anything in moderation is unlikely to hurt you. Moderation is a very very important aspect of everyday life (one of the things the bible got right ). hmm, I guess thats all I have for now.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
wow that beyondveg site had a retort to the fact that apes are basically vegetarians, funny stuff. The only reason I said anything is because I saw that on the discovery channel, I have never heard it through a vegetarian source (makes me wonder if someone high up on the chain of command over at discovery wanted to slip in some propagandaPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! )Just in case your curious, it wasn't that great a retort anyways. Somehow comparing our diet to our closest relatives is 'fruitless' while comparing our diets to our ANCIENT ancestors produces viable fact .Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Most of the articles I've read on that site are total crap anyways, especially the '6 common vegetarian problem scenarios' article. It's just a bunch of shitty generalizations that say nothing of actual fact (I'm not a goddamn hippy, GRRR!). I'll keep reading the site just in case I'm missing something worthwhile, at this point that seems highly unlikely.
no we are not carnivores. we are omnivores (was tht the right word?) just like bears. Our front teeth is like for carnivores and the back teeth are like the ones for grass eaters. We are suited for both in one time.
True. But to chew cooked meat... QED. Can you give a detailed, scientific reference on this? I've got a pretty good feeling the sushi I eat gets digested. Maybe we don't digest it well..., however, this does not support the argument that humans are not meant to eat meat. None that I can think of. Homo Sapiens, an omnivore, treats its food with fire to aid digestion, taste, etc., in addition to using a spoken language and an advanced complex behavior that allows it to adapt to various environments, including creating and manipulating its environment to a higher degree than any other living creature. I think this is trying to be the acidic digestion argument, that is supposed to rule out humans as any kind of meat eaters, by correlating differences between true carnivores and humans. Humans have an acidic digestion system, more acidic than herbivores, less so than carnivores. Humans also have a shorter digestive tract than herbivores (only one stomach, too), and a longer one than carnivores. Carnivores swallow their meat whole and digest it quickly (and a good deal of it not completely digested). All urine from animals stay within a close decimal to neutral, the carnivores slightly acidic, the herbies basic. Humans stay slightly basic, true. This is more of the "all herbivores and humans have these" argument. All herbivores and carnivores breath oxygen and use ATP for cellular energy production. Both humans and all carnivores have binocular, forward-facing vision. QED? It is one of the stickiest points of life science to compare animal observation and humans. Just because two similar animals have similar digestive tracts, does not mean they will eat the same diet. Chimpanzees, our closest cousins, do eat some meat. Not a lot. This was observed by Goodall. Chimps also make war and kill out of jealousy. Many other simians eat some meat. Again, this doesn't prove that man is "meant" to eat meat. This doesn't follow from the previous statements, but nice try. I don't know the stats but I believe rice, wheat, and soy are the most dominant food stuffs. There are not enough pounds of livestock flesh available to feed everyone on earth meat everyday. Without agriculture we would still be... eating tubers and fruits. Yeah that's it. Look at the evidence. If we weren't meant to eat meat, what are we doing eating it? Is it a conspiracy? We're misled by some great metaphysical evil? This is similiar to the "we went wrong somewhere" argument that paleo-dieters use to justify their meat vice grain consumption. Sure, the lobbyists are evil and powerful, and they're wrecking the environment. I'd say a better plan is to support local farmers, don't eat fast food or at restaurants that don't support humane farming, and plain just don't eat a lot of beef. A vegan argument I read not long ago was that we weren't meant to eat meat because we can't outrun and jump on a zebra's back and bite into it, which is about dumb. There is mounting evidence that early man was just as much a scavenger than a hunter. After a carcass was picked clean, only man with his hands could wield a rock and break open bones to eat marrow, which is very nutritious. There's not as much evidence yet to support the theory that man evolved on shore-based ecologies, where there is plentiful food, but the theory has some merit. Shellfish can be eaten raw. However, at some point, contrary to whatever you might want to believe, man picked up a stick or rock and killed an animal to eat it. The bone of contention (pun int.) I have with the paleo diet people, though, besides their fanaticism for "natural" purism, is that agriculture would never have developed if we didn't have the ability to do it and thrive off it. Yes, it fueled cities, war and disease; it was one of many Faustian bargains we've made in ten thousand years. Yes, perhaps we developed diabetes and other maladies from an excessive intake of grain starches, but in those days nobody gave a damn, they ate to stay alive. Tooth and nail. People with any and every diet today live longer than the average human two thousand years ago. A big part of that has to do with agriculture. When people get fanatical about what man is "meant" to be like, this is the beginning of ideology. Man was "meant" to adapt, to do whatever it takes, including assimilating to the ideology that's feeding him. It's never been proven that man was "meant" to eat a lot of meat, as well. Vegans may take on ethical reasons to quit eating meat, and there are many who do it out of genuine diet concerns, or personal disgust. I think I did it because it seemed like so many people around me were asleep in considering how they fit in with the rest of the world. I wanted to change the world and myself with my diet, and I still do. Most people around me don't give a damn, long as that belly's full. I'll admit, reading more into human nutrition made me doubt my veganism (which in itself was precipitated by literature based on morality), and gave me what I needed to "cave in." Only I didn't cave in. I made a choice, but it is an informed choice. I reinforce many decisions with gut feelings and ethics, but when it comes to diet, this is first and foremost scientific and chemical. My health and my family's health are very important to me, and I won't base it on ethics alone (This also precludes me from laissez-faire dieting -eat what tastes good- becuase I think the evidence against that is compelling). So, the arguments of correlation such as that our teeth are shaped a certain way or whatever are only just inductive arguments, not scientific ones and they are only used to support a primarily ethical view. Good posting all around, y'all, especially Elbaz. Bon Appetite! John Le Coq
I am a complete carnitarian. I specially seek out foods with no plant products in it whatsoever! Do you realise the suffering of all the crops in the field? they are standing too close together. And nobody ever cares for them! They don't have eyes to show their pain they can't make noises when they're hurt they can't defend themselves or run away think about it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Yes, and they don't even have a brain that can generate pain signals....poor plants. They are hurting and they don't even know it. It must really suck to be a sadomasochistic plant. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
