Singular "they".

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by mathman, Jul 2, 2022.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    ... a bit vague, I guess (?)

    In most situations that matter, there is right and wrong.
     
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    I think the colour blue is better than the colour yellow

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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Does that matter?
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Could

    I'm colour blind defective safe

    Others only see shades of grey. They would ñeed to be considered and consulted about colour schemes used in some situations

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  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You're saying that a colour blind person might perceive the wrong colour (or no colour, where there should be colour). This would be an example of where there is a right and wrong answer, would it not?
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Right and wrong was not the question being answered

    Question being answered was

    Does that matter? which was stemmed from
    If you want an answer from

    a colour blind person might perceive the wrong colour (or no colour, where there should be colour). This would be an example of where there is a right and wrong answer, would it not?[

    the answer would be - prevent such a situation from happening. Hence my being tested and declared defective safe and others not being allowed to work in jobs in which colours are critical being declared colour blind and being ruled out of jobs requiring colour discrimination ability

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  10. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't, but if a lot of people are confused, there may be a better idea.
    My daughter told me Mx is gender neutral for Ms and Mr.
     
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  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I think James R coined the perfect term for the problem: conservative fogeyism.

    It's not for the confused people to come up with a term that suits. It's up to the confused people to put on their grown up pants and respect the needs of a historically oppressed community.

    Have you heard that they're considering replacing 'slave' with 'involuntarily relocated'? True story.
    'involuntarily relocated' sounds way better to the ear of conservative fogeys.

    Remind me why we need titles such as Mr. and Mrs. in this day and age?
     
  12. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds better than "Ouy you"

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  13. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Good luck trying to use politics to modify language.
     
  14. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Out of curiosity, is there any language that has a gender neutral singular pronoun for people?
     
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    It doesn't so much change as it just falls by the wayside as the oldguard dies off.

    That's why gender fluidity has become mainstream. Younger generations just don't care what a bunch of stodgy Boomer dinosaurs think about it.
     
  16. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    John, formerly known as "he" is the correct protocol I think.
     
  17. mathman Valued Senior Member

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    The original question was linguistic, NOT about gender attitudes! Talking about Spanish speaking people, the words are Layino and Latina. To avoid gender ident., Latinx is used without the hassle. All I would like to see a sensible singular pronoun replacing his/her, as Mx replaces Mr/Ms.
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    There is one. It's 'they'.

    This is the 21st century. You've successfully adapted to having a portable computer and car seat belts when they became ubiquitous; you can adapt to this too.
     
  19. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    WTF?
     
  20. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

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    Finnish has "Hän" , which is used instead of he or she. "He" and "Ne" both mean they(pl), but "he" is used in reference to people and "ne" for otherwise. ( That is formally. In common usage, "Ne" will be used for both.)
     
  21. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    You also have the neopronoun options as exemplified in the last section of this table, titled "Artificial and proposed epicene pronouns"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gende...and_proposed_gender-neutral_singular_pronouns

    - - - - - -

    The potential problems in English perhaps pale in comparison to those in other languages...

    Gender-neutral text perceived as less comprehensible than gendered text in Polish
    https://www.psypost.org/2022/07/gen...han-gendered-text-in-polish-study-finds-63456

    INTRO: Some languages are more heavily gendered than others and this can cause issues for non-binary people who speak this language who may prefer to use genderless language. New research published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior found that gender-neutral text in Polish, a heavily gendered language, was less comprehensible than gendered text. Further, people described with gender-neutral language were rated less favorably than people described as men or women...

    - - - Closing (Sarcastic?) Comment About The Broader Topic Area- - -

    One of the many future challenges on the ever-expanding social justice front is: How will we respectfully address people who psychological identify with being non-human animals?

    These are the "therians", who are a sub-category of "otherkin".

    The latter embraces the whole spectrum of "abhumanism" (the trend away from human status -- at least currently only in terms of personal thoughts). From individuals who consider themselves to be elves, vampires, etc trapped in human bodies to those with the cognitive orientations of space aliens and even non-conscious furniture like chairs (the extreme fringe).

    Even more distant on the horizon is the enigmatic question of just how long the general population would continue to uncomfortably play this new version of the swindler's game of The Emperor's New Clothes, due to fear of being canceled.

    Since it's becoming apparent that the educated, secular world is every bit as astonishingly gullible to the pseudo-ethical gibberish and the "new sins" framework outputted by the intellectual class as the Christian theists of old were to the opportunistic babble of priests.

    But that said, let us all give thanks and hail the [non-deceptive, devoid of motivated reasoning] altruism of our beloved systemic-oppression-conspiracy theorists. We humbly genuflect to your worthy dicta, and a noble lineage that traces meanderingly back to the New Left transition, Uncle Karl's socioeconomic analysis, the Jacobin Club of the French Revolution, and certain 18th-century French philosophers (who were unsurprisingly either members of or sycophants of the aristocratic elite).
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    I was unaware of this movement. I will look into it.

    1. My first, unprocessed blush is that it has a number of hurdles to jump through first. The best analogy is that of individuals who claim to have formed their own religion and demand their own holidays. It is not enough to simply claim you are X and expect others to make concessions you just made up. The non-binary community has a storied history, a large contingent and have certainly grown to the point where it is a significant body. Have any elves banded into a community? Have they historically suffered oppression over the centuries/millennia?

    2. More to-the-point though - it's kind of a diversion from the thread topic, is it not? Do we actually have any human-centric pronouns that are a necessary component of comprehensible communication (as he and she are)?


    3. Surely the lowest hurdle for getting to call oneselves a community is to - at the very least - have a Wiki entry! Neither Therian nor Ad-humanism has risen to that level.

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    I'm not sure which camp this is directed at. Clarify?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022
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  23. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    Modern therianthropy
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therianthropy#Modern_therianthropy

    Making a safe place for students who identify as furries, therians, and otherkins
    https://forhighschoolcounselors.blogspot.com/2018/02/making-safe-place-for-students-who.html

    EXCERPTS: In our conversation, my daughter was quick to point out that there are whole communities of people who self identify as animals, elves, vampires, dragons, and so on. As she was talking, it occurred to me that the majority of school counselors are unconsciously unaware of their existence in the school community...

    [...] for those who identify as "furries", "therians", or "otherkins", the research indicates that the majority of them have never shared their interests with family members, often feel socially isolated, and believe that society would mistreat them for their beliefs. In addition, many who seek counseling for depression or anxiety were driven away because of the therapist's focus on their beliefs rather than their mental health issues. Therefore, researchers suggest that membership in this culture is seen as part of maintaining their psychological well-being from an unsafe society.

    Now that we have some minuscule understanding of what it means to self identify as a "furry", "therian", "otherkin", what can school counselors do to support these students?

    Online harrassment/bullying and the therian community.
    https://forums.therian-guide.com/Thread-Online-harrassment-bullying-and-the-therian-community

    ??? Except that the individual referenced above seems to have been bullied due to a facial expression disability, not because of therian or otherkin status.

    Well, that certainly terminates any further addendums to the matter -- or to clarify, ends venturing up into the broader category of social justice affairs that subsumes the OP issue.

    I mean, aside from the fact of it being a secondary item of that post, and this population group merely being a future potential prospect among the many developing ones. (IOW, a "detour" not anticipated to have discussion legs to begin with.)

    Oops, since #3 is a remaining part of that text section... I guess a neater closure should take place here.

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    That's the prefix "ab-" as in meaning "away, away from".

    Not "ad-" as in "toward or in addition to".

    _X_ individual can't get any closer to being a member of our species, only venture away from it.

    Future generations of therians and otherkins (those of the applicable subclassifications) might have the technology, genetic engineering, and surgical prowess of the transhumanism era to more literally implement such desires. But for now _X_ will have to be limited to social elevation of their psychological orientation to an accepted norm, along with contingent body tattoo modifications, and limited in scope medical operations.

    Now... Now, this dastardly "detour" and affront to the regulatory sensibilities of SF can officially cease...

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    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022

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