Star Wars vs Star Trek (Redux)

Discussion in 'SciFi & Fantasy' started by Stryder, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,101
    Originally back in 2002 a thread emerged on Sciforums in the newly founded Scifi section for Star Wars vs Star Trek, from which an Epic battle commenced involving not just both universes but any other universe that gained popularity amongst scifi buffs. That "War" hasn't ended, it hasn't been postponed, in fact I guess you could imply it's a new chapter in the Saga of which is mightier, which will win the day.

    The Old thread can be found here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?7435-Star-Wars-vs-Star-Trek, please study this to orientate yourself with the direction of this campaign, when you are ready for battle please report to your commander for assignment.

    In a battle of universes which would win? (It doesn't have to be Star Wars or Star Trek, however they are the main contenders for universal dominance.)
     
    RobinR likes this.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,438
    Well, if we want to reboot this debate, then some ground rules need to be determined:

    A) What levels of cannon for both sides do we accept?
    B) How do the universes interact?
    C) What, if any, information do they get on the "other universe" when they transition into it.
    D) Do we hand-wave physics so both sides can act as they do in-situ, or do we assume that each side is relegated to following the other sides physics structure?
    E) Super-Entities and Sub-Deities - yay/nay?

    My reasons for the above:
    A) Cannon in Star Trek is usually pretty straight forward - what we see on screen, period. There are, however, some really great books that dive into things not covered on screen without superseding or redacting what we do see. Do we wish to allow this?

    Likewise, in Star Wars, cannon is usually the same, except with it's several tiers. The problem here, though, is that some of the books and such from expanded universe promote incredible claims of power that we don't see on screen, and sometimes vice-versa. How/where do we reconcile this?

    For both, there are times where what we see on screen simply doesn't match with what we have seen other times on screen - we should establish some system of outliers for these so we can safely explain why we have seen said events without attempting to pigeon hole either side into a specific set of strengths and/or weaknesses (example; should we assume Neutronium in Star Trek and Star Wars are the same thing, despite the fact that in ST Neutronium can only exist in neutron stars, where as in SW we have times in the books where Han has picked a piece of baseball-sized Neutronium up and crumbled it to dust in his hands)

    B) How they interact is more about how do the races therein interact. Do we assume it is an All of ST vs All of SW slugfest, with every race and creature from both sides lining up to defend their respective universe? Or are we going to look at just the primary races? Do we consider that, perhaps, some races from either side would remain neutral, or even side with the other? Or that their could be random wildcards? Lets face it, the chances of the 'Vong or Species 8472 teaming up with anyone are incredibly slim, while the Rebel Alliance and the Federation are more likely to share information and technology with one another once they realize a common enemy (Empire). And the Borg... well... are likely to just be the Borg.

    Also, what time period do we assume for both?

    C) We know that HyperDrive requires pretty detailed starmaps in order to allow for jump plotting. We also know that Warp Drive, while able to be used without prior knowledge of the area, works best in well-documented "warp lanes" where the system can best warp space to permit the highest speeds (this is the explanation for why sometimes a higher warp factor can actually end up being slower than a lower one, even within the same SEASON). What kind of starmaps, tactical/cultural/political data, etc do these two universes get on the other?

    D) Self explanatory - both sides have their "moments of derp" where physics goes out the window - do we want to just allow these for the sake of argument?

    E) Again, self explanatory, but comes down to how we answer B. If we go, in B, with All of ST vs All of SW... then game over. Why? The Q Continuum snaps their fingers and bam, the SW universe is suddenly sterile from the start and no sentient race ever crawls from its primordial ooze. This one is tricky, especially because of the demi-deities in both (such as high end Force users in SW and certain entities such as the Traveler and Kevin Uxbridge (a Douwd) who can bend reality and energy to their wills). For this matter, do we allow the Force at all, and if so, how so? Do we go with the midichlorian explanation? Again, setting such ground rules will keep the debate fair and on track

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. cornel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    137
    How about letting the races from babylon 5 join in ?
    The Shadows' goal was natural selection through war, so we can just have them stir up the Sith and the Klingons etc.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    J├Ągermeister likes this.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,101
    The more the merrier.

    @Kittamaru,
    Perhaps we should look at the equivalent of a Fantasy Football league, just instead of football a person gets to handpick their renegades from a number of different universes and get to pit them up against other "teams". It would be up to each person to decide if they want to stay with a vanilla team or get creative. I guess the problem would be as you say "assessing power", how would they be matched or would their be an implied method to "Level balance".
     
  8. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,438
    That could be quite interesting, but to do that we would need to determine that baseline power level.

    As for Babylon 5 - I dunno, I mean the show was awesome as all hell, but tech wise, well, if memory serves, nuclear warheads and plasma cannons were still "high end" weapons, weren't they? I could be mistaken, of course

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. cornel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    137
    Well, the old races(Vorlon, Shadows, and a few more) were immensely powerfull.
    It were mainly the humans who were low-tech(and for some reason they got to play general in the following wars)
    I dunno if we rea'ly need the humans from B5 as theyre already presented through ST(including earth) and SW(although, in a far far away galaxy)
     
  10. LoRaan Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    166
    Actually, we do have a problem with the Q just wiping something out. We have never seen then have the capability of doing anything like that. The ONE instance of a civilization being wiped out was not performed by a Q at all and even then the being only managed one Species and even then was severely provoked by the death of his wife. You can't kill her again.

    The one incident Q was involved with that actually threatened humanity the temporal anomaly was not created by him directly. That is if it even existed outside of Picard's imagination as you'll note nobody remembers the alternate past and the incurable disease he supposedly contracted should have been starting before First Contact yet never did.

    In the Q we see Time Dilation Powers, Teleportation, Matter Rearrangement and Energy control. All powers we see in the Jedi, Sith, and Ang Ti Monks. Not to mention the Father, Son and Daughter embodiments of the Force.

    So simply saying the supposed super beings of one galaxy trump the super beings of another is ludicrous on the face of it. I mean hell, you wanna get really weird with it Star Wars Comics were handled by Marvel at one time. This would in all absurdity give them access to the Beyonder. Nothing trumps that. The intelligent thing in this would be to leave all Godlike Beings out of a war. Keep it to the mortals. Otherwise it just becomes two sides saying:


    SW: Well the Vong Worldships could do this...
    ST: Well the Organians could do this...
    SW: Well the Force could do this...
    ST: Well the Q could do this...

    It's an argument that has no basis in anything we can even hope to estimate.
     
  11. Flectarn Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    347
    Wow, this is still going on... impressive.

    Also the new cannon policy for Star Wars is going to be very relevant.
     
  12. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,438
    Indeed... in many ways, the new Cannon policy just sealed the fate of our Galaxy Far Far Away.
     
  13. Apocalypse2001 System Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    693
    awww 1080 pages and you had to close it

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    (how come? i was unclear about that...)

    Yes speaking of books the Crucible books that I read about Kirk, McCoy, and Spock (not in that order), were done for the 40th(?) anniversary and according to the author and from what I could see, with his clever use of temporal events, he doesn't contradict any established cannon (which is what was on screen of course). I'm torn with this. While i argued incessantly in the originla ST vs SW thread about how no books of either universe are cannon, it seems the Crucible books COULD be cannon or untold stories/episodes if CBS or the Roddenberry estate explicitly stated that those books can be included as cannon. I haven't heard anything to that effect, then again, I haven't really searched for anything related to that in the past few years since i was cut off from the internet... *take deep breath*

    Oh by the way, hello to old friends/acquaintances Kittamaru, Nexarc, and alpinedigital.

    P.S. I read the Crucible books in this order: McCoy, Spock, Kirk.... i think

    P.S.S. i was thinking of the genentic superiority of The Shadow from B5 and species 8472...of course no information exists about the former, so starting a thread about that would be useless. IN which case this entire sentence is useless. I'll be quite. Too much thinking at this late hour give me ulcers >.<
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
  14. Apocalypse2001 System Lord Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    693
    LMAO "moments of derp" that's hilarious. I like that. I should write a book using that sentence.

    Oh and about super-beings yay or nay: it should quite obviously be YAY. Since proper arguments shouldn't cherry pick what the can use (like Warsies who always don't want Trekkies using the Q). So if it's in the universe it's fair game.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
  15. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,101
    In regards to why the closure:
    At the time we had a database issue where a long running thread about the LHC suddenly went missing, somehow it had magically deleted.
    One of the concerns was that due to it's size it had somehow caused an internal error that had magically wiped it, so to stop that happening to other long threads it was suggested to close them and open a replacement one up in their honour.
     
  16. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,048
    Star wars is like the illuminati, and star trek is like the military.

    Who runs what, of course star wars is better than star trek, as they would dictate to them what to do.

    Star wars would be like the ptb, and star trek is like the military. We all know who runs what.

    Star wars is the spiritual side and star trek is the scientific side of humans. There is that dual nature, and one does not really exist without the other.

    Even though america has the most powerful military on earth they are worried about goat herders in afghanistan, lol
    ^^
    Get it.
     
  17. Anew Life isn't a question. Banned

    Messages:
    461
    The original Star Trek was normal until it got too clear, something about the literal film production. Perhaps when they began doing live broadcastings the show lost it's flair. Maybe that's with any ?!show. I wouldn't know.
     
  18. zgmc Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    756
    When did star trek lose its flair?
     
  19. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,101
    The beginning of the 1980's?
     
  20. Kittamaru Now nearly 40 pounds lighter. Staff Member

    Messages:
    12,438
    I dunno, I rather enjoy TNG and DS9... even Voyager at times. Star Trek: Enterprise I liked, though they ruined the timeline something fierce.
     
  21. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,474
    When we got old enough to realise what a self-important over-inflated crock of sh*t it was.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. zgmc Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    756
    Pretty sure you are referring to Star Wars.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  23. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,474
    Nah, at least Star Wars never pretended to contain any real science.
    Trek, on t'other hand...

    I stopped watching Next Gen when one crewman declared that the engines were faulty and the power output was rising "symptomatically".
    After a couple of seconds to get my breath back (incredulous laughter will do that to me) I realised that either the script writer had written that word or the actor had misread "asymptotically" [sup]1[/sup].
    Whichever it was led to believe that they couldn't give a sh*t so long as it sounded technical [sup]2[/sup].

    1 Even if the word meant was "asymptotically" it still wouldn't have been the problem it was made out to be. Exponentially, yes. Asymptotically, no.
    2 Hence Treknobabble (Some absolute gems here - just skip through the homoeopathy crap).
     

Share This Page