Star Wars vs Star Trek

I've already been to stardestroyer.net before you posted the hyperlink on this site.

 

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stardestroyer.net is the Fox News ("Everything we say is true, even the stuff we made up! If you disagree you HATE AMERICA!!!") of scfi, and should be treated as such.

By "universe" in threads like this usually refers to the conceptual universe of ideas and characters created by the show or property, not the "actual" physical space/time its universe occupies. If you're going to disallow Q because he comes from a different continuum than the ST physical universe, you'll also have to disallow the SW Hyperdrive, as the hyperspace it accesses isn't physically a part of their time/space either.

But even without the Q, there's still a whole bunch of other god-like aliens running around the ST universe. How about the Uxbridge guy from third-season TNG, who wiped out billions of Husnok everywhere in the universe, all at once, with a thought? Or Trelaine's people? Or the Organians? Or the Melkotians? Or the Thasians? Or the Metrons? Or the Excalbians? Or Negilum? Or the wormhole aliens/prophets? Or the race that created V'ger? Or the Whale Probe guys? The Dyson Sphere guys? The Doomsday Machine guys? The Tin Man guys? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I bet Uxbridge by himself could wipe out all Jedi and Sith with a thought, and the Organians could shut down all the remaining tech and smugly lecture the survivors to death. With Dune its even worse.

Now if you want a SF universe that's a challenge--how about the Xeelee? Or Hyperion?

 

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The Douwd... I already mentioned him, yes. And he implied that he's not the only one of his kind, though they live beyond our galaxy. Thankfully!! What's to stop another Douwd having a similar omnipotent tantrum and snuffing out the Federation?

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Nevr heard of those... do you have links?

 

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The SW hyperdrive IS a part of the SW universe!!! Check out this link !

 

That was exactly Dhusk's point: if you say that Q is not part of the Trek universe, you must say that hyperdrive is not part of the Star Wars universe either. He does have a case there... or it could be a discrimination worth making, for the sake of removing Trek's biggest, most unfair advantage.

 

And anyway, the only actual competitor in this thread which uses a hyperdrive to enter another universe would be babylon 5. Except it ain't a competitor.

 

The description of the hyperdrive, taken right off of starwars.com (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/hyperdrive/index.html):

"The term hyperdrive refers to the engine and interrelated systems that propel a starship through the alternate dimension of hyperspace."

Emphasis mine. Since this comes from the official Star Wars site, I assume its canon.

The hyperspace the SW hyperdrive accesses is not a part of their space/time. It is an alternate dimension. Since you want to disallow Q because the Q continuum is not a part of the ST physical universe, we must in all fairness also disallow travel for SW ships through hyperspace because its not part of the SW physical universe, either.

 

Dhusk, do you have any idea what the word 'dimension' means?

 

More than you, I bet. Before you launch into an ill-informed lecture on higher dimensions, I should point out that I've written extensively on the subject on my website:

http://orbitalvector.com/FTL/Hyperdrives/Hyperdrives.htm

But the Starwars.com description of the hyperdrive clearly describes the hyperspace of the SW universe as an alternate dimension, not a higher one. The phrase "Alternate Dimension" in popular parlance always refers to a universe outside our own. Unless you can give me definitive references of sources calling the higher-dimensional spaces of our own universe as an "alternate dimension?"

Besides, isn't this argument just a whole bunch of hand-waving to cover up the fact that the SW universe really has NOTHING AT ALL to counter the ST Super Aliens, Q included or not? As I pointed out over 20 pages ago, this thread is clearly NOT the Federation vs the Empire, but the entire ST universe vs the entire SW universe, and for ST that includes creatures and races as far above humanity as humans are above one-celled ameobas.

Even a warsie's most ridiculous wet dreams of ludicrous weapon energies and shields that can withstand a gazillion supernovas really mean nothing to entities that can bend time and space with a thought. So let me ask you this straight out:

IS THERE ANY POSSIBLE MEANS IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE TO COUNTER ATTACKS BY THE LIKES OF Q, THE DOUWD, TRELAINE, THE WORMHOLE ALIENS, THE ORGANIANS, OR THE OTHER SUPER ALIENS? ANY AT ALL?

Or are you just going to wave your hands some more about petty technicalities instead of giving me a straight answer?

 

Straight answer: NO, THERE IS NOT.

STAR TREK UNIVERSE WINS.

Thankyou, Dhusk.

 

Hello everybody. This is my first post on this forum, and I eagerly join this debate. I have little time and was therefore unable to read all of the posts. However, I have general ideas about what is yet unresolved about the debate. I am comining in on the side of Star Wars.

Lasers versus phasers, while the phasers may have advanced technology on their side the design of lasers has been refined for millenia and therefore will have developed far more than phasers.

For ground/ close combat, for starters I have never seen a Star Trek equivalent of an AT-AT, Juggernaut, Hailfire Droid, or even a Hovertank. Not to say that there aren't any. Next, lasers are not the sole weapons. Besides the Jedi's lightsabers and the common blasters, there are vibroblades (a metal blade device using an energy source to create minute vibrations forming a coating of razor air around the blade) and slugthrowers (high tech guns) as well as my personal favorite, the disruptor (which uses a super high powered heat emission to literally vaporize whatever it hits).

In everything I read, I saw no reference to the forces of the New Republic, the Corporate Sector Authority, the Hutts, the Hapes Consortium, the Chiss Ascendancy, or (God forbid) the Yuuzhan Vong. These dynamic groups all developed a level of power equal to or greater than the Empire at its height.

The tactics abilities of Grand Admiral Mitth'raw'Nuruodo have also been ignored, and he was quite simply the single greatest tactician of the Star Wars universe. Merely looking at the artwork that a being surrounded themself with was enough for him to understand what he needed to defeat that enemy.

Finally, in my first post I would like to balance the incredible factor known as "Q". Mentioned in only one book that I know of (I can't remember the title, but it was about the Caamas document) a man named Car'das referenced on a group of force-using monks of a different philosophy than the Jedi or Sith. These monks, while not capable of such things as throwing lightning or choking people across miles of space, had another set of powers. They could teleport (or at least their ships could), and more importantly, could create matter from nothing and turn matter to nothing with a thought. Moreover, they are (at least to my knowledge) far more numerous than Mr. Q because there were no requirements to joining their order with exception of willingness to learn and a desire to do good. Force sensitivity wasn't even required.

It amounts to this: give me some advantage that Star Trek has and I will counter it with something from Star Wars. May the Force Be With You All.

 

In response to the amoebas comment, diseases kill people every day.

 

Arquibus, I sense the spirit of a great verbal fencer within you. Welcome to Sciforums. It's always a pleasure to meet new people around here. I myself joined this site solely because of this thread (and I took the time off to read every single post. This thread is about 5 years old now, and so I can say that is a worthy achievement). I actually support Dune, but these Trekkies are getting crazy. Every page or so some Trekkie will pop up and say something like:

YOU ALL SUCK, AND TREK WILL SCREW EVERYTHING BECAUSE OF ONE WORD: QQQQQQQQQ !!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wheee....................

This was originally pointed out by Starthane I think.

 

Actually, the first Q-evangelist on this thread was Neutrino Albatross, back on page 2.

 

My vote would be with Star Wars. They got the force and them spiffy lightsabers.

 

Nobody has said anythingthing else in response to me regarding the actual debate, so I will continue with SW's advantages. The first thing I will point out is the superweapons in Star Wars.

Superlasers-The Empire had three Death Stars (the two in the movies, plus a functioning prototype). Besides these, the Empire had a Tarkin class station with a superlaser as well as at least two Eclipse class star destroyers and at least one Sovereign class star destroyer that had spine mounted superlasers. A Hutt also had a station built called Darksaber, because of its resemblance to a lightsaber.

The Sun Crusher was a fighter sized vessel that fired resonance torpedoes capable of destabilizing and subsequently destroying stars. It was built out of some kind of molecularly changed material that was completely indestuctible. It was removed from comission by the use of the Force to place it in the core of a star, where it still sits unable to burn away.

The Galaxy Gun was a giant launcher of extreme proportions which fired capital ship sized missiles with their own laser turrets that were capable of destroying entire star systems.

Dovin basals are creatures created by the Yuuzhan Vong to serve as gravity generators. They can use this gravity to destroy worlds by destabilising the core or, like they did when they killed Chewbacca, pulling another celestial body (a moon, in this case) down on top of it.

There are also inumerable biological weapons, like the Krytos virus, that were used to decimate entire races.

 

Deja vu.

 

Wow, those grapes must taste awfully sour.

A discussion of the Star Trek UNIVERSE (note word used here; not just Federation) has to include the god-like super-aliens; they're as canon as any uber-obscure technology used in any of the EU books. Yet when someone brings them up in this debate the SW side goes into a cognitive dissonance and pretend they don't exist.

Talking about the ST universe and not mentioning them is like debating a war with the US but conveniently ignoring the fact that the US has thousands of nuclear weapons. I'm sure the Sun Crusher, etc, are very impressive weapons, but once gain they would mean very little to a creature that can wipe out an entire race everywhere in the universe with a thought, like Oxbridge the Douwd. The same goes for the aforementioned Car'Das. Force tricks, even very advanced ones, won't do much against entities who can manipulate powers that seem light-years beyond the Force. When was the last time a force user took a ship to the Big Bang or rewrote the timeline with a shrug?

Now once again, let's actually address this, because unless someone can prove that there's anything in Star Wars (or Dune or whatever) that can counter the ST Super-Aliens, all the fancy uber-tech weapons and force tricks and tactics don't mean squat.

 

As I already said, the monks (not Car'das, who merely spoke of them) could will matter into being or destroy it with a thought. They could do the same with energy, and further anyone could become one. Also, because we have (I think) said that Q is a super lifeform, that means he is alive. Life must be characterized by a possible death. Therefore, he can die. I don't know if he is matter, or energy, or something else entirely, but the monks, who favor balance, could simply will him out of existence. After removing all the super powered god-like superbeings, they would just go back to their little sector and meditate (or whatever superpowered Force monks do). Also, with the whole time manipulation thing, I thought we were leaving that out on account of its whole dangerous to everybody on account of unpredictability thing.

 

Another thing, before I forget again, someone early on mentioned that Q would help the Federation because he owed them one. How can a superbeing with God-like powers need a favor and in return have to "owe them one"? If he is so incredibly powerful, why can't he just have done whatever it was on his own?

One more minor note, you didn't address my whole unevovled microorganisms killing people message.