Star Wars vs Star Trek

Dude you don't 'think' much do you? The Borg would not consider the federation a high enough priority. Sufficient resistance is not dictated by you according to your own idea of how an encounter should play out.

Here you are again trying to dictate the parameters of the encounter. Im really fuckin getting SICK of this. Nobody said shit about this taking place in either galaxy, so there's no reason for you to assume either will have home field advantage or be too great a distance from their normal range of operations. If you keep implementing scenario details that benefit only one side, you're just ruining the debate.

1. You are drawing conclusions. Dramatic build up is not evidence. Its dramatic build up. You're presenting storyline and plot like its part of the battle plan. "If the music gets tense, then my shots will be more accurate."

2. 'IT'S a TRAP' was in reference to the fact that the Empire was aware if their plan, and mislead them into thinking such a plan would work. That does not mean the Empire set the stage specifically so they would create that plan. "It's a trap" is the universal 'ABORT' signal when a 'surprise attack' is fails. 'It's a Setup!' is the phrase that means 'they set this up as bait to lure us here.'

3. Im not judging Luke as less of a Jedi, Im judging him as less worth the risk. At the time he was not skilled enough to justify risking everything.

4. It was an escape pod, that could have contained information that should not have been let into enemy hands, and it did. Life form or not, nothing should have been allowed to escape, especially when there are so many 'non living' beings like the droids. It should have been recored or destroyed; That's just good solid security practice.

 

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The worst enemy to fight is the one who can turn you into the enemy. The second worst is the one who places higher value on strategy than they do on their soldiers. Like Kamikaze pilots and suicide bombers - they don't hesitate to use unconventional tactics if it means winning the battle. A Borg is just such an enemy.

"The Borg Queen confronts Janeway, demanding that the drones of Unimatrix Zero submit themselves for reassimilation. The Queen destroys several of her own ships, each housing thousands of lives, because only a handful within are "offline" and therefore suspected of being the newly sentient drones."

That Borg Queen is hardcore, but so is Janeway. Janeway's done some real hardass captain strategy herself, and of all the captains - one that you least want to fuck with:
"Janeway interrogates Lessing, whom she has tied up on a chair in the cargo bay. She threatens to drop the shields in the room and let the aliens in if he doesn't tell her Ransom's tactical status. Getting nowhere with him, she goes outside with Chakotay, and drops the shields. Chakotay quickly realizes Janeway isn't bluffing, and asks her to stop what she is doing, that she is going too far. When she refuses to do so, he goes in and rescues Lessing, saving him in the nick of time".

How about we go with both Janeways, The Borg Queen and all the drones up against the Empire lol

 

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10,000-25,000 is not a threat to the Borg? But then I guess I have to doubt that since they never have more then several dozen or so ships to defend Earth when the Borg arrive... even after hours. You see, if they can afford to send one Cube, how is two, three Cubes going to affect their holdings in DQ? They have hundreds of thousands to low millions when it comes to Cubes but can't send three Cubes to the Federation? I mean what is the point if they don't send enough forces to win.

If it is not taking place in either galaxy where are they fighting? In the middle of nowhere?

1. Vader had just got a lock on Luke. Are you really going to tell me that he would't have blown apart like the other X-wings?

2. The only reason the rebels found out about the the second Death Star was because the Emperor allowed the data core/whatever thing to fall into rebel hands.

3. And the Emperor didn't think he was risking a thing. If the rebel ground forces had failed the empire would have won in space.

4. Agreed, it was stupid of them to let it go. But didn't 3PO say Droids were not allowed to use lifepods?

Yes, that depends on who gets into whos galaxy first. It would take the Borg years to scout out all one million systems of the Empire plus the other 11 million. If in the ST galaxy then the Empire would most likely have a large fleet guarding the portal/whatever they use to get between galaxies, so the Borg would have one hell of a time taking it and getting tech without beening destroyed.

No, I did not miss the point. Keyword is "if" the Borg assmilate SW forces.
Which will be hard when you just shamble along not even using the weapon you have to stun the enemy like you can with a Phaser.

Han and Luke were in Stormtrooper armor and making it look like Chewy was a prisoner. Obi Wan is a Jedi and was able to fool the Imperials with the Force as he made his way through the DS. The only reason they escape, if you remember is because Trakin wanted to find the rebel base.

True. But some of the more rare things like time travel take a lot of power and put huge stress on the ship.

True, the Borg would be nearly unstoppable if they used everything to its fullpower. The thing they would need to do is start using their ships correctly and go after the planets one by one so they can outnumber the Empire and take them out the same way the Flood beat the Forerunner.

 

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Howev er Q and Species 8472 are NOT form this Galaxy. The Q are from their own reality and Species 8472 are form an alternate dimesion. Thus they DO NOT enter into the equation at all. If Q did not help during the Dominion war he will not help here.

 

Sorry but you cannot have a Trek character act against their base nature. Q by his base nature would not raside finger one to help the Federation. At best he would give cryptic warning, arrange a rather limited duel between a Strike Cruiser and the Enterprise and watch as the Federation totally misses the point. Then he would sit back with popcorn and watch the show. Why? becuase he would not want to bother the Ang-Ti monkswho could very well destroy even someone like him.

 

However the first time you met this race it nearly destroyed a cube. They vanquished the one cube you sent. The third time they cuased a schism in the collective. One would think that fourth time they would send more Cubes.

Becuase like the Omega particfle it is so far beyond them they would need a dedicated research facility to duplicate it even once. We are talking tech that is millenia more advanced instead of just years or decades.

No, that isn;t how it happened at all/ Of course if you understood anything of strategy or tactics you would actually understand that. DS1 was destroyed by a leak of complete technical data and blueprints. DS2 was destroyed becuase it was commited to battle before it was finished. The first was a masterful job of espionage, the second was a masterfully laid trap that backfired bc the leader of the ground crew made friends with the locals.

Well since the Federation is not the Rebellion.....Sorry but Feds are toast.

However if said Plague cannot pierce your immune system becuase it is more highly developed.......

Depends on where the people are from. Take 10 basic Michiganders with shotguns yyou got ten dead borg and we're using ancient weapons.

 

When I said galaxy I meant the whole side, I didn't mean littraly THE galaxy, just there own side I just used the word galaxy because everyone else in this forum was usin it for the same meaning.

 

That is your own personal assessment and is not valid. Its SW universe vs ST. I don't care who helps who or doesn't in either, you literally get every species, every weapon, and vessel from the entire universe, including alternate realities. The only characters you can't use are those who are fictional to THEM, not US. So characters they meet in a dream, no. Hallucinated characters, no. But if they create them on the Hollodeck, yes. If the EMH is real enough, Holographic characters should also be.

Imagine the frickin NERVE of somebody dictating who the Q would assist in a battle! Its one of the reasons we'd choose to have Janeway involved just to ensure ST is victorious. I don't care what any SW fan says; in an 'all out - no holds barred' match, Q definately will be on the front lines and your first move should probably be to lay low and try NOT to upset anyone.

 

No, they fear the Borg. The last thing they ever want is another encounter with them. They know you cant reason with them. You need to stop trying to impose your own beliefs about how things are like you know everything. Remember for a moment, for entertainment purposes, conflicts play out so the good guys win. This would almost work for Star Wars except that if you say the Empire had a 'trap' and used (risked and lost) so many warships and a deathstar just to get Luke and turn him to the dark side, then that was a poor plot idea IMO.

Now you're just acting like an idiot. There are more than just 'either galaxy' but the point is not to assume ST moves into SW universe or SW moves into ST. Keep such variables out of the equation unless that is submitted as a key point in the scenario.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDsKikERtKU
6:25 Vader locks on and fires, gets several shots away BEFORE the right wingman is hit.

2, 3, 4: Its all irrelevant anyway, it's all due to writing a plot that allows this stupid stuff to happen. Realistically, Noboddy in the ST universe would have a clue as to how to destroy a death star so who cares?

Here you again assume they are in either galaxy.

Again, you're imposing your own attack methods to show how they would not work. And you ARE missing the point. There IS no IF. There is only the fact that the Borg may not kill their enemy, they may make more drones. I don't care to debate the success rate of this effort - it is NOT THE POINT. There is only the fact that if a ship was somehow disabled, Borg would not be turned into Imperial soldiers. The best you can do is kill them. But if Borg catch a ship, the crew would be turned into drones, and thus increasing their numbers.
This point started over 'outnumbering' the opponent, and I am stating that as your numbers deminish, the borg number increases. If you don't see how this could seriously effect the outcome of such scenarios, then I don't see the point in arguing with you.

Yes, whatever you say. But the hole in your story is the serious effort to stop them from escaping. Stormtroopers shooting at them like crazy, trying to crush them in the garbage compactor, etc.

Dude they ALWAYS try to keep them from escaping and the Falcon always escapes. Just recall the image of Vader peering out into space... turning away, and then turning back to look again as if he can't believe that shit actually happened. And now imagine him bitching at people and pointing out the window saying, "Dude, they were JUST RIGHT THERE!!! You see where I'm pointing? Come here, and Look!!"

Well, you're the expert! You continue with your reason why SW cant, and I'll just not tell you how ST can.

I said 'Everything IN their power' not 'everything to its full power'. For the purpose of their prey having a fighting chance, they rarely show the Borg use all the tricks they have up their sleeve. And why should they??

You say they're dumb, but even so - drones don't need to understand a strategy or even realize their efforts should have been their strategy. You see them as space zombies, but have you forgotten there's a queen? It's unclear to me if a dead queen gets replaced, but I guess so because Picard killed one and there was another that Janeway encountered. The queen would be a nightmare to deal with because she has a vast knowledge of so many species and their technologies.
And she isn't just a drone, shambling along; She spends all her time coordinating the efforts of the entire collective. Each encounter they lose - you see it as a defeat. But in the game of chess, you sacrifice pawns all the time. If you cant see the big picture, you needn't be pondering the complexities of a battle strategy in the first place.

In Seven's 1st episode, species 8472 was chasing the Borg and Voyager.. The borg sacrificed a cube to allow Voyager to escape. From species 8472 point of view, they got 2 cubes but lost voyager, but that's not how everyone sees it. From a strategic standpoint, the Borg only lost 1 cube. You see, at the time, their purpose was not to destroy 8472, but to develop a weapon. As soon as the key elements were beamed to Voyager, the 2nd cube was no longer a strategic target. So long as Voyager escaped to complete the weapon, the cube served its purpose.
So from the Federation's point of view, and yours - 1 cube sent to Earth and a failed attempt is a loss. But it could very well be a perfectly thought out 1st move in a chess game. The queen could have tried several methods of assimilating species 100 times each and found that 1 Cube per system is an acceptable standard 1st encounter and also for low priority additional strikes. As far as Earth and the Federation go, you may think they should be a higher priority because they put up a good fight, but while you lose more cubes trying to conquer them, it would probably be best you seriously evaluate how you lost the 1st time, and the 2nd...Perhaps you don't think in 3 dimensions... maybe its not HOW to strike but WHEN.

 

Yeah, add in shotguns and whatever else you need to kill them. If this is meant to be funny, it was. But as logical debate?

Whatever, I argued how this point was missed once already. As for the rest of your post, it pretty much won't get validated by me. It's irrelevant anyway. The SW plot only matters to what happened in SW. I don't care to argue the reasons for it.

 

I noticed that mostly everyone debating a win for star wars all put the bad guys up to do their dirt. That's an acceptable strategy to put your strongest out there... and for Trek, people are typically left defending the Federation like thats ST's best. I'm sorry but Trek's most hard-core badasses are encountered and then left the hell alone. Much of the stuff they barely escape from are of unknown origin... so we can't credit the Federation with having designed anything that could stand up to the SWs guns, but the Emperor's BIG bitch - is that the Executor class? Or is there something even bigger? I think I have an idea what we can match it up with.

 

I vote we send the Doomsday Machine after the Empire... or just encase their worlds in Dyson Spheres

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The Emperor's biggest ship constructed the Eclipse which is well over 30 kilometers long if the comparisons are right and carries a superlaser as it's main armament. It also carries five thousand heavy turbolaser, 5000 Heavy ion cannons, and tens of thousands of point defense weapons. Also it's shields are rated to be able to take a Single Shot form the Death Star II and it's main gun can take out one of the massive SHield Plates of the Death Star II. All in all a vehicle that only really only a few entities in ST could handle and all of them are hands off type dudes.

 

I'm sorry but you do not get to run this argument it was asked from the beginning all of canon Star Wars EU against all of canon Star Trek.

So your opinion on what is allowed means precisely nothing.

 

Hey, I am a Trekkie from way back. I understand the world better than you ever could. Hell, i have even spoken with Gene when he was still alive. First of all Species 8472 are and isolationist xenophobic group. They would only join the conflict if the Empire entered Liquid Space. In fact if the Empire was destroying the Borg they might even help the Empire finish them off, but would more than likely just watch,

As for Q, he has NEVER interfered in a strictly mortal affair. Show me where he helped in the Dominion War and then you might have an argument for Q coming out and saying hi. Unless there is some higher lifeform or great paradox about to happen the Continuim would just pop some popcorn and lay some bets.

However I do have a counter. Say Q does enter the fray. Then I call the Ang-Ti monks who timewalk back to when the Q were cavemen and wipe them out. Oh and BTW just for a laugh according to the SW timeline The Battle for Vavin was 6 Billion years ago. So imagine the people of SW with 6 billion years of evolution and technological advancement.

 

Assuming, of course, it can line up it's main gun for a strike (only practical vs starbases/planets) or that it's other weapons can land a hit on a highly agile, mobile target.

So, yes, if you crew the Trek ships with your average Star Wars crew, it'll be a slaughter. Throw Picard, Sisko, Janeway, or Kirk with standard Trek crews, and it'll be a pitched battle. Add in some Legacy crews (eg, the original NCC-1701 crew, the NCC-1701-D crew, or the NCC-74656 crew) and their respective captains, and you have an engagement trek could easily win

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No, it was NOT all of Star Wars EU vs all of Cannon Trek... it was ALL of Cannon Star Wars (in order of Cannon) vs ALL of Cannon Trek (in order of Cannon).

Bad thing for you is, your EU is often overruled by high-cannon (movies) and thus WORTHLESS.

Get it right, or get out :shrug: Isn't hard to figure out mate.

 

I didn't realize there was a Vavin... or did you mean Yavin? I'm so confused now... :m:

The Ang-Ti monks can't "go back to when the Q were cavemen" because of the simple fact that the Q have always been... they're omnipotent and omnipresent for a reason mate. They are to Trek what Yaweh is to Christianity - they always were and always will be.

And SW wiht 6 billion years to advance? They'd be DEAD. Wiped out by civil war and/or stars burning out / going super nova.

So, sure, why not - we'll give Star Wars 6 BILLION years to advance. To their demise.

And, if I recall, this is ALL of Trek vs ALL of Wars... not "the species from Trek you want" vs ALL of Wars... or was I mistaken?

 

Excuse me but I presented the 'Put 10 normal borg in a room, and 10 normal SW characters' scenario to make a point, so goddamn right I run that argument. If I am the one making a point, then I dictate what data validates it.

Dude who the hell are you to even try to dictate that we don't bring a particular species powers to the table because of how they behave on the show?! FUCK that. The storylines of the books, shows and movies have NOTHING to do with this, NOR does the gap in the timeline count to benefit a species with 6 billion years worth of technological advancement.

This is straight up, bring what you want, recruit who you want, universe vs universe battle. We shall not allow argument over who has no interest in the battle and would not help and we don't create reason (hypothetical or otherwise) for a species to watch from the sidelines. So far, in my own mind, there are only 2 Trek verse things in question of being dismissed for use, and that is Q because that's a slaughter, and The Time ship Relativity because people are still debating about time travel theory.

 

Absolutely positively correct. He was trying to limit what Star Trek characters we can use against SW. Imagine the nerve...

Q is our ace in the hole, and that win should be accepted without question, BUT one could argue that immortals should not count as they are obviously unable of being destroyed. So ST will pull out the next sure-fire trick of time travel and we have an argument about time travel theory or dismiss that. Soon all the bets stuff we can imagine doing to help ST get argued against... First Q and time travel, then species 8472... what next?