Support for belief in Noah's flood, not evidence.

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Dinosaur, Sep 4, 2017.

  1. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,224
    Right, and as exchemist pointed out, that's a fairly recent movement, only the past couple centuries. Now, Christianity has a long history of mythical literalism to varying degrees, but it was rarely absolute, and the educated priesthood read the Bible with much more poetic metaphor. It was Evangelical Protestantism, during the tumultuous events of 17th century Europe, and the Great Awakening in North America, that kicked it into overdrive and created the current phenomenon of Biblical literalism.

    Most religions don't subscribe to myth-literalism. Mine certainly does not.
     
    exchemist likes this.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    As someone who did a 2 year stint in Houston, 25 years ago, I share your pain.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. foghorn Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,451
    Way before Martin Luther and Protestantism the Catholic Church were burning people, heretics, because of a book they didn't take literally ???
    My god what type of people were they.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    Barbaric. But they didn’t burn them on account of a book, of course.
     
  8. foghorn Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,451
    If the Catholic Church didn't take the Bible literally, then where did they find the idea of a god creating the Earth and there being only one god?
     
  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    I went into this in post 89. Genesis was often treated allegorically, but an allegory is not the same as fiction: it conveys a message, by means of a story, often symbolic.

    The persecution of heretics was generally to do with doctrine, which comprises both the ideas developed from scripture - as interpreted by the church - and further theological concepts subsequently derived by the church.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
  10. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    It's even worse today. Just look at what's going on in the Texas senate.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    I believe you. When I was there, even some of the Catholics were nutcases. There is, or was, this horrible man called Donoghue......
     
  12. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,224
    All of that was less about textual literalism, and more about public adherence to doctrine about theology, philosophy, and practice.

    Though it's a stretch to say it was "way before" Luther. It wasn't that long before his time that the Catholic Inquisitions were established. It's mostly a phenomenon of the High and Late Middle Ages.
    The Church largely lacked the centralized power to enforce itself between the collapse of the Western Roman Empire in 476 CE and the resolution of the Investiture Controversy in the 1100s CE, so it often relied on secular authorities to do that for them-- which of course was made complicated by the political motives of those princes. The Church wasn't an entirely politically unified entity either, even in the West, and bishops had a lot of local power too, which made that enforcement very complicated and not really centralized.

    The Mediaeval Inquisition, the first real attempt at a Church-driven, centralized process to stamp out heresy, only really emerged in the 1200s. It was organized, not by the Pope, but by individual bishops, and mostly in reaction to the Cathar movement-- which was a highly organized, popular heretical group-- not really as a response to the occasional peasant that questioned the Bible or didn't go to Mass or had beliefs that deviated from the norm. And that wasn't entirely cut and dry either, as the Pope initially didn't want violence against heretics, and excommunicated bishops that approved of lynching, instead hoping that just better explaining Church teaching would be sufficient. When it really got underway and was radicalized into severely persecuting heretics, it mostly followed on the heels of successful secular military intervention against Cathars and Waldensians. It was never just about the Church and religious doctrine, but I'd say it was mostly about secular power which the Cathars (who rejected the swearing of oaths) threatened. The Inquisition, at least in the Middle Ages, was more of a legal inquiry that exposed heretics; all of the killing, maiming, and exiling was done by secular authorities, as public heresy was usually a civil crime relating to disturbing the peace-- it's just, in those times, punishment for public disobedience was death.

    And by the 1400s, the power relations had gone back around, and control over ecclesiastical affairs slipped out of the hands of the Pope in Rome, which would continue in the 1500s. The Inquisition in the Early Modern Period became more of a tool of kings and proto-nations. The Spanish Inquisition, for instance, was approved of by the Pope but was established and wielded by the Spanish monarchy as a tool to build a Christian Spanish nation and ethnically cleanse Jews and Muslims from Spain. The Inquisition's condemnation of Joan of Arc in 1429 was entirely political, to the point that her conviction was overturned 30 years after her death once the French Kings won the Hundred Years War.

    So by the time we get to Martin Luther in 1519, the Inquisition had been kicking around for only about 300 years, and half of that was spent under the direction of local or national leaders, rather than under the centralized Church. It was a fairly recent institution, with a considerable amount of corruption and secular politicking attached to it.
     
    exchemist likes this.
  13. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    As I said, I have no problems with relegating Jesus (and the entire bible for that matter) to allegory and metaphor. But, as an ex-christian from the bible belt, I understand Dave's wanting to verify Jesus' credentials, so to speak. I mean, if it's not factually true, then that relegates the ten commandments to the ten suggestions. Don't know where that leaves the concepts of salvation, heaven and hell. Without the resurrection being literally true, then we might as well be discussing the Tao of Pooh.

    Many people ask me if I don't believe in this stuff then what prevents me from doing evil. Personally I think that tells me a lot more about them than they realize... Makes me glad that they believe in a literal interpretation.
     
  14. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,231
    Exactly, the "ten suggestions".

    I think many Christians need God more for this exact reason.
     
  15. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,231
    What is your belief?

    I believe in God, concept, light,love,all known, all powerful. Exists in our universe and outside of it at the same time. It's will created the universe.
     
  16. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    What do I believe? I believe there are a lot of unanswered, if not unanswerable, questions about why does anything at all exist.

    It appears to me that the universe itself may be a conscious lifeform. After all, we are a small part of this process known as the universe and we are conscious lifeforms. To paraphrase Carl Sagan (and Michael Valentine Smith), we are a way for the universe to grok itself.
     
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    Grow? or Rock?

    Never mind, love the word (grok)

    Find something to pin it to please

    Word like that to good to let get away

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,935
    Stranger in a Strange Land (1961) - Robert Heinlein

    "Heinlein's coining of the word grok—meaning literally “to drink” but more broadly “to understand profoundly and intuitively”—was later incorporated into English-language dictionaries."
     
    exchemist likes this.
  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,077
    I never took time to look it up thinking typo

    But 'to understand profoundly and intuitively” fits it like a surgical glove

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  20. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    Ah so that's where it comes from. I had no idea.

    I've only read one of Heinlein's books, "Starman Jones", which I read some time in the mid 60s, when I must have been about 10 or 11. It made quite an impression on me. Pity the central premise was to do with computers so primitive they relied on a light bulb display to show the answer to calculations. If it had not been for that, it would still be a good story today.
     
  21. davewhite04 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,231
    I see the universe as a cold unforgivable place. But your belief is quite popular one. I thought you were a Christian who had no problem if Jesus existed or not, which would of been interesting

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  22. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,451
    Very informative.

    I seem to recall the Dominican Friars were founded around 1200, to preach to the Cathars and thereby counteract the Albigensian Heresy. Dominicans seem to have had a role in the later Inquisition. Torquemada was a Dominican, I think. But of course they also produced theologians, including Thomas Aquinas, whose tomb I was amazed to find in Toulouse, in the Couvent des Jacobins.

    In "The Name of the Rose", set in about 1300 (since William of Ockham is the main protagonist), they await the arrival of the Dominican inquisitor, Bernardo Giu, with great trepidation. Umberto Eco has however been accused of unfairly "monstering" Gui, who apparently was nothing like his portrayal in the book.

    I think Monty Python satirised the Protestant, swivel-eyed caricature of the Inquisition pretty well.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  23. foghorn Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,451
    I was kind of surprised the Spanish Inquisition were still executing people for their take on a god as late as 1826.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayetano_Ripoll
    Of course, it's all down to interpretations of the bible. And what’s ‘literal’ and what’s not to the reader (group).
    Apparently:
    No bible no deaths at the stake. People do love to delve into religious history and paint a 'true' to them, side of things.
    Hence, the number of different Christians faiths.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2023

Share This Page