Wife's girlfriends husband Wife's girlfriend.....s Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! husbandsPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! wife?Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! fish/doggy????? Well, I was pretty fond of rice and fish before thatPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
kmguru, It's you that needs to make yourself clear. You've said that these women are not free in the US to decide whether or not to wear their traditional cultural garb when clearly they are. So what IS your point.
iszlq: Let me repeat the sentences again (which you could have easily read). I wrote in the last page: "Great IDEA. Now if we can figure out where to get these "allow" licenses to make it happen. While one group is free running around in thong bikinis, the other free group want full black dress on their women. Who is going to excercise authority over whom?" Meaning what one group considers freedom, the other group considers that to be decadent or against their culture. This ideological differences create issues that are very difficult to solve. And when you say that "that the government of one country should not attempt to force it's beliefs upon another country", how do you solve that? Are we talking about a higher authority that will enforce these rules over one government that is forcing such beliefs on another? It is easy to say, we should live in peaceful co-existence. But how? what is the mechanism? Do you have any solution/ideas for that? BTW, about that thong bikini example: Certain groups of people (that includes Islamic and Jehovah grp) do not want their women showing anything bare between ankle and neck. While I respect and understand their views, the rule is from the male perspective and should not be imposed on women (atleast that is what the women told me), specially when these women are in a "when in rome, do as romans do" type situation. In case of Islam, I think the punishment can be death. The point I was trying to make, apparently without success, is that, how do you allow such freedom if those people want it but are afraid of it? In case of a totalitarian regime, how do you "free" their people to allow free choices? And if we do not stand up, to free them who will? And if you agree that we should "allow" free choices for others, do we use military force, political pressure, trade and commerce, demonstrations or what it is you want to use so that we all live in peace and harmony with all the free choices? On the otherhand, if you do not agree that we should get involved in the operation of "free choice" for those who do not have the same freedom as we do, then what does your word "allow" mean? How do we "allow"? If you still can not understand my point, I hereby ask one of our esteemed members to translate my thoughts to you....
kmguru, I DO read your replies... Apparently you need to reread MY post, To reiterate - INDIVIDUALS live in those cultures and CHOOSE to abide by their rules. As for one countries rules over another AND the fact that women find the "men's rules" oppressive: meaning if women in Iran find men's rules oppressive then they need to revolt. Yes, it is dangerous, yes it is uncertain. But do you honestly expect OTHERS to fight their battles? Do you think OTHERS have that right? Suppose a woman BELIEVES that she SHOULD wear a black robe - again there ARE women in the US that do. Should SOMEONE else decide for her that she SHOULDN'T? No, clearly THAT decision must be made by HER. I must admit, I do not understand the question. I think you might be taking earlier statements I've made off the cuff too literally. The ONLY people who can do this is THEM. Certainly if the people ASK for outside help an outside government MAY provide it. However, a government's responsibility is ALWAYS to it's OWN people first. I see where the problem is, I think. You are getting caught up in my use of the word allow, which was really an off the cuff response that I admit really means nothing.
So then, do you have a solution for: "How do we help each other get beyond mere survival? How do we progress to a more equitable system, minus the bloodshed? Otherwise, what will make this or any other system work for the majority of people? Not just the few? "
This is not a valid question. It supposes that A) most people are merely surviving B) that there is a "system" in place C) that that system is inequitable D) that that "system" is causing bloodshed.
I thought so... Then why didn't you say so from the beginning. Poor Randolfo is having a heart attack and you are doing rain dance.... This is a high IQed forum. Jump in any time, but please synchronize your thoughts with that of others so you do not have to dance a lot. Thank you.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Not for you I suppose. Thanks for dropping by. I will see you in another thread.... I am going to stay here and discuss my idea of Fat Cows...
Now, where were we? Oh! the topic: "How do we help each other get beyond mere survival? How do we progress to a more equitable system, minus the bloodshed? Otherwise, what will make this or any other system work for the majority of people?" It seems to me, when there is unjust activity, the media focus mobilizes public sentiment to do something about it. It does not work all the time, but to certain extent it works. 60 minutes, 48 hours, etc do provide some public service. I think, as more and more people get connected via Internet and become aware of the reality around thier backyard, nation and the world, certain groups can act as watch dogs for inequality in the system. We help each other by bringing true unbiased facts into the public consciousness. The cause has to be just, not like some people who think Earth will turn into a giant blackhole. Those of us who are in a position to spend the time to bring the news to the public awareness can be catalysts of change. Our retied senior citizens, instead of playing Bingo could help (talk to your parents...). Education is very important. Many years ago, I met a senior diplomat from one of the Afrikan Nations in China. He blamed all their troubles on the White people. After hearing a 2 hour bitchfest, I suggested him to go back to his country and setup scholarship programs to send their best and brightest to Harvard, MIT, CalTech etc. I suggested that the Return on Such Investment will be so great that 20 years later, he will thank me. Unfortunately he could not see my logic. He mumbled something about nationalizing all the foreign holdings (means taking over). That was his solution and he was proud of it. Moral of the story is some people just do not want your help - they know better, atleast they think they do! Fat Cow story later....
I wish to add a few comments before the cows pass through and trod on everything. I think one of the problems here is that: Apparently iszlq has never been out of the US. As such she has only the viewpoint of how the US thinks things are to judge and base her points on. It is fine to say that if they feel they are the ones who are wronged that they should overthrow their oppressors. When the oppressors are the only ones with the guns and their government gives them an almost blank check in actions to quell the populace's unrest, they are going to die so that the rest of their peers may see the futility of resistance. When Kuwait was over run during the start of the Gulf War, only the rich got out. Not everyone was so lucky. Kuwait had a freer system of government than did Iraq. The women were in some cases beaten or worse, in public, to show the rest what would happen if they too did not follow the rules that religion demanded as proper conduct. To the Iraq that was fitting and proper, the way to show those newly conquered proper manners. In their eyes it was teaching of proper behavior to those less fortunately educated. Another part of this thread, is a classic, time tested, and is ancient beyond our history. That of the young idealist against the time worn and proven elders. Not that it's good or bad. In one form or another this has been around since the earilest days of man. All parties seem to be fulfilling their roles to the best of their abilites. In view of the earlier statement, I salute all in this thread. It is truely where we came from.
So you are suggesting then that other nations risk the lives of their own people fighting for freedom in other nations. That involves another use of force as well as putting the other nations people in harms way. I am in no way suggesting that nations remain completely isolated, but I do see a problem with sending one nations troops off to fight another nations war without serious consideration. That in no way prohibits PRIVATE groups outside the affected nation from helping in the fight, however. Slightly off topic - and for Chagur if he's around - the above is a really good reason to ensure that guns are not outlawed. One of the first signs of impending human rights abuses by a centralized government is the outlawing of guns. Educating people to this fact might save them by alerting them to impending trouble so they can attempt to flee BEFORE things get really bad.
Thank you wet1, for an excellent analysis of the problem in this thread. I did not realize it, until now. Today, I am going out to the local Wal-Mart to get a few rockets, a couple of helicopters, one aircraft carrier fully loaded, two 256 MT nukes (just in case one is dud), some tents and military rations - so that I can send my harems in all black dress as my private army to free the oppressed across the sea, somewhere in the otherside of the planet that I have not seen. After all, this is a private matter. Did I forget anything?
kmguru You use sarcasm as an excellent point of the sword. iszlq Such has been going on since people first oraginized into city states, welcome to the real world.
Re: I thought so... QUOTE]Originally posted by kmguru Then why didn't you say so from the beginning …..and you are doing rain dance..... [/QUOTE] We don't always say what we mean, or mean what we say ( is that cliche or what? Sorry!) And some languages or their practitioners are not adept at making their point clearly. I think the idea is to ask for clarification? Unfortunately, my diet of cows & other assorted junk is doing that all by itself. But I am glad that I got some people expending brainpower, thinking, talking & hopefully listening. Maybe, someone here or later in some other forum, will come out with that Nobel Peace Prize winning idea. I'm just hoping it's not in the 23rd century. I'm hoping this is a high IQ forum, with enough people talking about this, maybe some Einstein will say 'E is =mc2', and someone else will say 'prove it' and someone will come along and do just that and many people will say 'wow, your're right', then it's up to thinking people to accept this and then maybe change will come to our little pale blue dot? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Chestnuts Randolfo, I must admire the chestnut that you have put within the fire. For truly noble purposes. I wish the answer was a cut and dried one that we could lay it upon the table for our political representatives to dine upon. I am afraid that you have indeed picked a very thorny one. It is a matter of all agreeing. With all the hate, rivalry, and envy in the world alas there will be no easy answer because part of the answer lays outside of our control or ability to influence. All must agree and you can see in almost any thread you pick that there will be those who disagree not matter what the subject. Politics are even more thorny than this forum with much more at stake. But I would love to see the answer come from here as it would be as refreshing as a gust of frest air in a stale room.
So Randolfo, are you going to join us in the hunt for the Nobel peace prize winable answer? Any comments on our answers? Are you really looking for the answers like the American Cancer Society? BTW, answers are easy, implementation is impossible (just ask any politician!)
...it's up to thinking people ... Are we chopped liver? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
