Syrian War: Israel Returns Fire

Discussion in 'World Events' started by Tiassa, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh please is this going to become and endless debate on who started it?

    But I do wonder StrawDog what does qualify as "Attain a just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees"? Also Prime Minister Ismail Haneya of Gaza's Hamas government said on October 2006 that the "problem with the Arab peace initiative is that it includes recognition of the state of Israel, the thing that the Palestinian government rejects" and dismissed it. Hamas has stuck with this despite almost all the rest of the Arab countries and groups siding with the initiative by now.
     
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  3. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    One has to wonder how trigger happy one must be to shoot an unarmed loon?
     
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  5. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    That old chestnut?

    "There is little doubt that, if a state of Israel existed within its 1967 borders, then Hamas would accept its existence. For years, Hamas spokesmen have emphasised that they are seeking a long-term truce with Israel, the price being Israeli withdrawal to its 1967 borders and the creation of a Palestinian state in the rest of mandate Palestine."

    "The group's founding charter calls for the destruction of Israel. Hamas has since said it would accept the establishment of a Palestinian state next to Israel and a long-term truce as a "transitional solution". It has also said it would "respect the will of the people", suggesting it would accept a referendum endorsing a "two-state" deal with Israel."
     
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  7. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    Suicide bombers wearing explosive vests. Are they loonies? Are they unarmed?

    Stop with all these 'incidents' and blame game; and don't let them distract from the real problems/realities which BOTH sides want sorted out peacefully. There will always be these 'instances' engineered by one 'side' or others' warmongers who treat these people as pawns for their own ends.

    Concentrate on the main game: Peace between the people: Excise the warmongers/loonies from the process, and let them stew in their own hatred/lunacy. The people on BOTH/ALL sides have had a gutful of hatred and violence which will not work for them in the present realities.

    Instead of going over again and again the usual dead-end tit-for-tat blame game, start fresh and keep ging QUICKLY so that such stupid/tragic incidents don't have time to derail the new processes.

    Get in their UN, and make buffer zone so no side/looney can 'create and incidence' which may have been engineered by or will be an expedient excuse for, warmongers to butt in again.

    Good luck, everyone.
     
  8. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    It is being applied RIGHT NOW, and more and more, all over the globe. That is what 'transition' has been happening which is creating these demands for democracy/people power. Where have you been?

    Facing new realities and making realistic compromises from ideological/political/racial/tribal positions of old. That is the only thing that ever works for long.

    All the other extreme/unrealistic efforts have been doomed to fail from day one.

    Only the continued and accelerated application of this 'notion' will produce lasting stability.

    The question is, are we all prepared to apply it and stop bickering and posturing with blame and feuds etc which only make things worse?

    Good luck to us all!
     
  9. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Give me an example.
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Strangely for an anti-spin sites it makes a statements like this right off the bat "Israel’s history is one of territorial expansion" despite the clear fact that they have shrunk significantly since the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty as well as pulled all settlements from Gaza. If Hamas was to say openly and unequivocally that they would recognize Israel if it agreed to go back to the 1967 borders, then that would get over this websites claim that they aren't begin recognized simply because their borders are not well defined. The quotes you cite might as well be cherry picking from an organization that speaks out of all sides of its mouth, by a site that clearly biased and is as much spin as it claims not to be. Certainly Israel does not want to give up the west bank, but Hamas also is certainly not ready to agree to going back to the 1967 borders and leaving it at that: they still have a section of their ranks that can't get over the delusions of taking all of Israel back. If not then they would have agreed without ambiguity to accord your referred to.

    "transitional solution" as in, "yeah ok we agree to that, but we will take all of Israel someday, I swear it!"
     
  11. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    Just in to check PMs and a quick readthrough. No time to continue long discussions. So briefly...

    I'll give you two:

    Northern Ireland: arms were decommissioned/locked away to allow political peace process to succeed by removing threat of warmonger violence so that the people sick of the crazy senseless violence could settle it for the people not the warmongers. The outcome now is a long peaceful way away from the violent and seemingly intractable madhouse that was Northern Ireland for over thirty years while ever the crazies and warmongers were allowed by the respective 'sides' to operate. That was stopped and political process succeeded.

    East Timor. Oz has had peacekeeping troops there for a while (I think they just ended their peacekeeping presence there now that the people had a chance to create the necessary stability and democratic institutions that were heretofore impossible because of militia from external/internal warmongers and crazies). The Oz presence effectively neutralized the threats from warlords and warmongers local and external, and allowed peace and democracy by and for the people to come forth.

    How's that for starters? You can read some modern history and find other examples which fall under this "notion" (some less successful than others during 'transition' which has not yet been completed due to lingering cold war and ethnic legacies and mercenary/criminal involvement which has not yet been neutralized but must be by UN if success for democracy is to be achieved for the people). UN application of this "notion" is all that separates us from the maniacal legacy of the past. No other alternative can ever work as well for sustainable longterm solutions and democracy for the people by the people, not for unsustainable warmonger-crazy world views/actions.

    Back in a few weeks. Cheers and good luck, StrawDog, everyone, nice talking with you....and until we speak again, enjoy your discussions/life!
     
  12. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    "Re biased website - the sources are noted, feel free to investigate. The basic logic is not hard. Hamas cannot recognise an Israel that occupies Palestinian disputed territory and continues to illegally, settle more and more Palestinian territory - obviously in the West bank and Jerusalem. If Israel reverts to 1967 borders and officially defines their borders as such, the door to recognition opens. Succinctly - for HAMAS to recognise current Israel, is for HAMAS to deny Palestine.
    Conversely - as in, "Expansionism (or The Greater Israel)"

    Clearly we need some defined borders for forward movement.
     
  13. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    Like I say, guys, we need to stop all this 'past-parsing' of stuff that was said/done in past contexts of cold war, tribal/religious hatreds etc etc. The people are SICK OF THIS STUFF. Irrelevant and obstructionist 'baggage' in modern global context/situation.

    The realities are evident NOW. The people want the right process NOW. Hang the past tit-for-tat idiocies and obstacles. Get the warmongers and past-parsers OUT of the process. The UN can and must do this because the people on BOTH/ALL sides want this. No more 'old ways' which led to this awful mess. The world NOW is a different place from our original/evolutionary path to this place. Use the present realities to allow the people to adjust/compromise as necessary for all the PEOPLE affected....and leave the warmongers, crooks and crazies out of the equation....since that is the only way, ever. Back in a few weeks. Good luck!
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Read your own cite: Hamas would accept those borders as a "transitional solution".

    As in: not a permanent one, or a final one.

    Well... they'd probably support a final solution, now that I think about it.
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    So because things are so unequal, one should simply lob bombs at civilians? This makes it better or more equal?

    No one is denying that the situation for the Palestinians is horrendous. Their treatment is despicable. However the Government body supposed to be protecting and defending them is lobbing bombs at civilians and then crying foul when Israel hits back hard. Unless of course you think it is more acceptable if Israel used similar weapons and lobbed them over the fence at Palestinian civilians at a similar rate that Hamas send their missiles over into Israel?

    Yes, Palestinians have the right to defend themselves. However, how are they doing that by firing missiles at civilians? This is self defense is it? Israel also has the right to defend itself against people firing missiles at its civilian population. Your argument goes both ways strawdog.


    Hamas will never sign a peace deal which would allow Israel to continue to exist. If it signs it, it won't keep it. And it has no control over its far right military wing to ensure that such a peace agreement is kept. And Israel will never sign a peace deal with Hamas because it is Hamas. Hamas wants power over all the Palestinians and will kill to do it.



    Oh I'm sorry, I forgot that only Israel's actions are meant to be criticised here. The point was that the Palestinians are literally caught between a rock and a hard place. Hamas fires missiles into Israel and does so from populated Palestinian areas. Certainly, Israel should refrain from bombing those areas in retaliation, but Hamas also knows that Israel is as known for self restraint as Hamas is known for restraint and diplomacy.

    You know, there's a saying about taking the higher moral ground... Unfortunately Hamas fail to do so and the result is that they deliberately target civilians and Israel is just as bad. In my opinion, both sides are as bad as each other.


    How so?

    Are people not allowed to criticise Hamas and their deplorable actions?


    Of course. The crimes are acceptable or more to the point, should be overlooked, if the side you think is right does them. That argument of yours also applies both ways.

    If Hamas wanted to deal, they would have stopped the thousands of missiles fired at civilians long ago. High road...
     
  16. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    If you read it properly, the idea is a "transitional solution" in perpetuity.

    And yes good pun, but off the marksman.

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  17. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    As North-South Korea 'transitional solution in perpetuity' shows, it is no solution at all that benefits anyone but the internal/external warmonger/power players exploiting the insanity for their own ends, and "hang the people's interests".

    Only a permanent solution based on the realities will succeed, and the one most glaring reality is that the warmongers/crooks currently in the mix have prevented a permanent solution FOR the people on all sides.

    Get rid of the past-parsing and ideologues, warmongering saboteurs of people power/interests...and the UN should do this NOW so that the people themselves and not their warlord crazies are the ones in actual negotiations based on their common human reality interests.

    Good luck to genuine peacemakers, wherever/whoever you are.
     
  18. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Obama said it himself - No nation in the world would accept routine indiscriminate attacks on its people - why exclude the Palestinians? Thus the resistance.
    The same Government cannot protect them from serial Israeli assaults on the strip, (casualties far, far exceeding the single digit Israeli casualties) rockets or no rockets, feed them, educate them, provide adequate water, housing, economic potential or offer medical facilities and treatment - ALL the product of the occupation. Additionally, Israel is the serial ceasefire offender. When talks fail time and again given the fundamental injustices and obscene pre-conditions insisted on, when attempts at gaining statehood are regularly blocked and vetoed, when hungry, hopeless and traumatized, you expect the Palestinians and their government to offer no resistance whatsoever? The rocket attacks are essentially the only form of resistance available, and will continue until the occupation ends. Israel in fact carries the responsibility for these rocket attacks. They can end the occupation tomorrow if they choose and thus end the rocket attacks that upset you so much.
    How should they defend themselves? Send drones to target IDF personell? Send their war planes and tanks into Israel to target the military? They cannot even officially appeal to International bodies against Israeli injustices given their non-state status. I am sure you would rather they just sit there meekly and slowly starve to death?
    That notion is of course your opinion only - and the standard echo from the Western media. Given that Israel does not talk to HAMAS in principle, ensures that this is an entirely untested scenario and thus your point above is null. HAMAS have said time and again, the border of 1967 is the starting point that will open the door to many possibilities, including the eventual recognition of Israel. Meanwhile Israel keeps building new settlements on these areas to exactly render such option practically impossible. Who has the agenda and who holds the cards?
    Just a gentle reminder that HAMAS is democratically elected, and even so - the sooner the occupation ends, the sooner the power grip HAMAS has will evaporate - no?
    Another gentle reminder, Gaza is the most densely populated area on the planet - where should they fire their missiles from?
    Israel is not interested in restraint. It`s pursuing a clear policy of collective punishment in Gaza (and the West Bank). Just this recent attack eventuated in the deaths of around 140 people including 30 plus children.
    No. Simply put, one side has the overarching potential to correct the situation that would immediately result in ZERO rocket attacks on Israeli citizens. Simply end the occupation. You need to ask yourself why that has not and is not occurring. Although given the global outrager at the recent Israeli assault, there may well now be hope of that.
    War crimes are never acceptable, including those proven, but never adressed, to be committed by Israel during operation Cast Lead. Ask yourself - who is oppressed and who is the opressor?
    No. There was a real possibility for a long term ceasefire before this latest Israeli assault. The rockets are not even remotely the issue. As I have noted - an immediate way to end these are by ending the occupation. The problem is Israel refuses to consider the borders of 1967 as a viable point for negotiations.

    "Operation Pillar of Defence, Israel’s latest war, began just as Hamas was cobbling together an agreement for a long-term ceasefire. Its military commander, Ahmed al-Jabari, was assassinated only hours after he reviewed the draft proposal. Netanyahu and his defence minister, Ehud Barak, could have had a ceasefire – probably on more favourable terms – without the deaths of more than 160 Palestinians and five Israelis, but then they would have missed a chance to test their new missile defence shield, Iron Dome, whose performance was Israel’s main success in the war. They would also have missed a chance to remind the people of Gaza of their weakness in the face of Israeli military might. The destruction in Gaza was less extensive than it had been in Operation Cast Lead, but on this occasion too the aim, as Gilad Sharon, Ariel’s son, put it in theJerusalem Post, was to send out ‘a Tarzan-like cry that lets the entire jungle know in no uncertain terms just who won, and just who was defeated’."
     
  19. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    I sincerely love your sentiment RC. Just - my eyes have seen it all, from the yellow windows of the evening train. My cynicism is born of the indefatigability of human nature - that has set humans on a course of self destruction - from the creeping militarization and control of society - to the utter destruction of our only home - planet earth.

    I wish I could be more hopeful.
     
  20. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I don't doubt it, it just
    A) they are cherry picked quotes not showing what else was said.
    B) Hamas, like any political or pseudo-political organization says a lot of contradictory things.

    I don't see how that prevents them for openly saying "If Israel was willing to return to the 1967 border we would be willing to recognize it." or something like that in no less ambiguous terms. So it not recognizing "current" Israel.

    For a time Israel had far FAR more land then that, but gave it all back to Egypt in trade for peace, huuum

    Clearly your just making excuses for Hamas. There are many other reasons to "move forward" in fact moving forward with a peace deal could force Israel to define its borders! If Hamas was to say they would accept Israeli existence if it move back to pre-1967 war borders and hamas agreed with a peace accord as such with all the other Arabs states everything would be on Israel: push for UN approval with the backing of every major Palestinian faction and most of the Arab world, and Europe and the vast majority of the world would likely back it, Israel would be forced to agree by it or suffer like a rogue state.
     
  21. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Umm - the complete sources are noted and complete articles linked.
    Not sure what your point is?
    No of course not current Israel with no clearly defined borders. Again... They have stated quite clearly and repeatedly that they will accept the status of Israel and enter into a long term truce with Israel - if the 1967 borders are returned - ie return the stolen land first and then we can offer peace.
    Which they of course stole in the first instance. Not to mention the original theft of all Palestine by the British and French - etc.
    Except of course Israel has no intention of moving forward - clear evidence is the ongoing occupation and continued illegal settlement on Palestinian land.
    HAMAS has said exactly that -
    “Because of many factors, we now accept to build a Palestinian state within the borders of 1967. But that doesn’t mean that we recognise Israel. But we are prepared to make a long term truce with Israel. Accepting the status of Israel without recognising it.”

    Again for the door open further, the onus is now on Israel.

    "when we have polled on the Arab Peace Initiative across the Arab World we now find that almost three-quarters of all Arabs support a solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict that would lead to the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel. That's the good news. At the same time, over one-half of all Arabs do not believe that Israel will be willing to take the steps that would allow this outcome to occur. And given Israeli behavior, this negative sentiment is growing."
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    And how does not mean they aren't cherry picking?

    That you can't say Hamas is ready for viable peace?

    "transitional solution" means "long term truce" to you?, see those are conflicting statements... I don't know why your even arguing about this Hamas rejected the Arab Peace Initiative, that right there is proof that at least that section of Palestinians is not ready for peace.

    I agree, they seem intent on the status quo. Which at least is better then wars and Intifada, the long term outcome will be that they will have to eventually grant the west bank Palestinians full citizenship as israelis as the west bank is increasingly inviable as its own country with Israel literally absorbing it like tree roots through a corpse.

    Which conflicts with other statements, prevents a move to push the Peace Initiative, and is not a "long term" peace anymore then North and South Korea are at "peace". If Hamas want to get Israel back to its pre-1967 border then its got to be willing to trade something for it such as saying they will recognize Israel if it goes back to those borders, why can't they say that? Oh that right their charter is for the complete destruction of Israel, they can't admit to dropping that dream of theirs!

    Again Hamas did not accept the Arab Peace Initiative.

    Again who are the people that matter in agreeing to the Arab Peace Initiative, lets see the Israelis of course, nope they rejected it, Hamas, nope they rejected it, the Palistinain Authority, oh they agreed with it, well that 1 out of 3! Are there any other countries that need to agree, aaah not really no, so if people in said countries are for it does that count: nope.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  23. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    An interesting afterword - Human Rights Watch agree that Hamas violated the rules of war by deliberately firing on civilians:

     

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