Tax Questions for Liberals and other Non-conservatives

Discussion in 'Politics' started by synthesizer-patel, Apr 25, 2008.

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What do you think of taxation

Poll closed May 25, 2008.
  1. Raise taxes for everyone

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Raise taxes for the rich

    33.3%
  3. taxes are about right - the issue is how they are spent

    19.0%
  4. some other opinion - (please post to tell us)

    47.6%
  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    So you'd be in favor of raising taxes on the rich, then, in that poll ?

    Considering that the top hedge fund managers in the US made more than one billion dollars each, last year, and if they rigged it right paid less than 15% of that in taxes - you paid close to 15% in Social Security alone.
     
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  3. Cazzo Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,031
    Like I said in my other thread, a flat-tax for everyone is fair in my opinion.
    I don't get jealous of people that have earned more than I have.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    So you are in favor of raising taxes on the rich, up to the point where they are paying the same percentage of all their income with the same deductions as the rest of us ?

    You would, for example, remove the cap on Social Security levies and apply them to all income regardless of source ?
     
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  7. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,267
    Neither do I - indeed when I received my first ever pay-packet that informed me that I now earned enough to have reached the top tax band in my country, it was a source of a certain amount of pride for me - not despair - after all I had to earn it to pay it

    You see, I feel that by making a contribution both in terms of money and in terms of my interaction with the democratic processes of the country I can make a genuine contribution to those who might not have had the same lucky breaks as I have had - and to MYSELF too!!! (and beleive me one ot two of the breaks I have had have been tremendously fortunate)

    In contrast it seems that you are terribly afraid and terribly hopeless

    You seem terrified of people's jealousy of you and your stash and have convinced yourself they want to steal it either legitimately through taxes or thtough other means - I don't doubt you are armed to the teeth to protect yourself from these phantom enemies (am I right?)

    You are hopless because you see no hope for the poor and less fortunate for you - even to the point of actually blaming them for being poor and less fortunate - you see no contribution that you can make - even from something as unimportant as money (i.e. tax) that could possibly ever help them - when in reality its not them that are hopless - its you - sorry!

    I pity you and all those like you
     
  8. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,459
    it all depends on how you want to define fair.
     
  9. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,267
    Sorry Billy - I'm rubbish at reading long posts - particularly when I'm staying at home on friday to save money and eating pizza and drinking fine Ale

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    it deserves some feedback as there's some good points raised...

    like this one:

    what a frankly fucking awesome idea! - the scandanavians really have things sussed out



    common misconception - it's called the WORLD series because it was originally sponsored by a newspaper called.......drrrrrrum rrrrrrrrrroll.....The World
     
  10. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,198
    Too bad. I tend to make long and I hope thoughtful ones, not the more common short quips. Some know this and do read my posts and I do not care about those without thought capacity, but often correcting their nonsense is a cause for me posting.* You strike me a thoughtful poster. That is why I said "Too bad."
    ----------------
    * Here is latest nonsense correcting post:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1833979&postcount=14
    It was a "stubborn case." I had to do it twice in same thread. See:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1834023&postcount=18
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2008
  11. vslayer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,969
    the fact that we have rich and poor shows that the government has failed, giving it any more money would be stupid, the answer is for the workers to simply stop paying taxes and boycott anything which would profit the rich.
     
  12. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    The gvmt has failed???

    I bought food stamps from a friend. She needed gas money to visit her boyfriend in jail. He was in jail for beating her.
    I loaned money to another friend so she could get diapers for her baby. The next day she showed me the sweet new leather jacket she bought.
    I had a co-worker with 9 kids, whining about how her food stamp benefits were cut so she was gonna quit working.

    If you are poor, quit having babies you can't afford!
    If you are poor, quit spending money on new clothes you don't need!

    A LOT of poor people are poor because of the dumb ass decisions they make.
    A LOT of rich people are rich because of the smart decisions they make.

    Rich people already pay more taxes than others. If its a flat percentage, its fair. Rich people donate money out the butt. They may not do it cause they care, they may do it as a tax write off, but they still do it.

    I think a lot of you need to spend time with those poor people and see where that money goes. Its amazing how many of them can afford beer, cigarettes, and cable TV.
     
  13. Cazzo Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,031
    LOL, I make 38K a year, I'm not in the upper class.

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    And you make the assumption that the only way to help the poor and needy is through paying taxes to an inefficient government.
    There is such things as personal donations and philanthropy; that's where people give directly to the needy minus the government step.......
    http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2007/June/200706261522251CJsamohT0.8012354.html
    Oh ! "gasp!" what's that !?!?!?! $200+ BILLION in personal donations !

    I don't know about you, but I'd MUCH rather donate to the poor directly myself, then have the government take
    money from me and redistribute it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2008
  14. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    53,966
    If something is really worth doing as a society, why wouldn't you want the government to do it? It's not necessarily any more inefficient than a private agency, and it's answerable to the people. It's not just about the needy, it's about investing in this country, it's people, it's infrastructure, it's energy supply, space exploration...
     
  15. vslayer Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,969
    1. food stamps: if the government implemented a livable minimum wage then she wouldnt need food stamps.

    2. jail: instead of attempting to rehabilitate him and teach him that violence is wrong he is stuck in jail, wasting resources and fostering contempt for "that bitch who put me away" and will only do it again when he gets out.

    3. poor money management: the government failed to teach her any common sense economics in school.

    4. excessive children: ill bet she grew up in a sheltered religious family and got taught 'abstinence only' contraception at school.

    5. food stamps vs work: if the government pays someone more to sit on their arse than to work then who is really to blame there? the mother who is struggling to get by and ends up with less money to feed her kids if she has a job, or the government that takes away for benefits for contributing back to society?

    6. rich vs poor: no, people are rich and poor because of the families they were born into.

    7. poor people: when youve lost absolutely everything, had to borrow money you dont have just to keep the pigs from kidnapping you and resorting to dealing drugs as your only means of getting by, then you tell me that booze and smokes are a waste of money, fact is they are the only happiness left between you and a bullet.
     
  16. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,267

    yet more fear and hopelessness on your part.

    I don't deny that impoverished people make bad decisions - but doesn't everyone?

    In my country, righty's make a huge deal over people who "sponge" off social security benefits - and doubtless there ARE a few lazy scumbags who do.
    HOWEVER the reality is that (according to our version of the IRS) businesses and the rich cheating on their taxes accounts for a tenfold defecit to the public purse in comparison to welfare cheats - furthermore it would be significantly cheaper for the government/IRS to crack down on those abuses - the problem is ithat it doesn't make for nearly such sensational newspaper headlines - especially if your newspapers are owned by Rupert Murdoch (AKA Fox news), and the government is far more afraid of a few wealthy individuals than it is of a whole bunch of poor voters.
    I'd be very surprised if the situation were significantly different in the USA.

    I ask you directly - do you really think that the points you have raised are a genuinely valid excuse for giving up on providing opportunity for the less fortunate? or do you just not give a fuck about anyone?
     
  17. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,611
    What a nice, loaded question. If you don't believe in xyz government program which may or not actually work, you must not give a fuck about other people. Nice.
     
  18. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,634
    I had to vote "other" because "tax the rich more" is not really well defined for me.

    (1) Whether a tax is justified depends on what the revenues will be used to accomplish. Taxing more because the army needs more bullets is one thing. Taxing more because we want to buy bicycles for every fish in the world...that's a bad tax.

    (2) Who are "the rich"? From the perspective of the average American someone earning $100K per year may be "rich", but in Manhattan that person is barely able to pay his rent. "The rich" is obfuscating to me...it's a tag one can use to make most people think it means "someone other than me who can afford to lose that money."

    (3) How much more? This is related to point (1), but taking a man earning $10 million annually and forcing him to pay an annual tax of $5 million is fine by me. Making him pay $4.5 million is quite a different thing.

    Personally I think the U.S. marginal tax structure is about as good as we are likely to do, but I imagine it could be improved with tweaks. Those tweaks might well involve a net tax increase on the rich, or it might lead to a tax increase on the middle class...hard to say.
     
  19. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    12,061
    Are we talking generally about the USA, or generalizing about ideal taxation schemes anywhere?

    A flat sales tax in the USA, with no other taxes levied and no complicated codes and loopholes would be the most equitable. This would, however, put hundreds of thousands of accountants, attorneys, and government agents out of work. We should subsidize their retraining for more productive careers.
     
  20. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,267

    I would request that you give me a fucking break my old rubber wellington.

    Unless you are entirely brainless you would realise that I'm merely challenging the fellow to give us some thing a little more substantial that tired old conservative bullshit rhetoric thats big on talk but light on fact to solidify his position.

    I guess we won't be talking again - see ya!
     
  21. ashura the Old Right Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,611
    Oh, sorry if I actually took you seriously. I've met plenty of people who completely mean that sentiment ("If you don't believe in xyz government program which may or not actually work, you must not give a fuck about other people") in an entirely non-joking fashion. Sarcasm doesn't translate well over the internet sometimes. :shrug:
     
  22. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    25,817
    I'm all for providing opportunity. I took advantage of every legal opportunity that came my way. It would have been easier to deal drugs, but I had a child to think about. I was not about to turn him into a welfare baby. I was not about to let him think it was an ok way to live.

    I don't give a fuck about people who wallow in self pity, accept the cards dealt them, and blame others for the dumb ass things they have done. And I don't give a fuck about you.

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  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    It doesn't cover the bills. We're going deeper in debt every year.

    And the accumulation of wealth in the upper few points of the economy is starting to change the structure of it. Class mobility is dropping. Home ownership - equity - is dropping. Wages are dropping. Pawnshops and check-cashing outfits are a boom industry.

    And it was not always so. The tax structure we had in the decades after WWII worked very well. We fought the Cold War, built an entire freeway system, set up a bunch of parks, put a half million soldiers through college and into houses, created a bunch of very wealthy men - what was the problem with that setup that it was dismantled ?
    Taxes the poor, who must buy, heavily, the rich shop elsewhere (or don't bother - rich people don't need to buy much except services - loophole city there).
     

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