You still haven't told me why I should be bothered ?I accept things the way I see them and the fact that I claim my response to you is determined show nothing more than that. How else would I would I respond if I were free ? Of course you don't have to take my analysis seriously; I'd be surprised if you did, Don't you understand yet ? I have nothing to sell, no conversion to offer; it's simply that I enjoy a debate and, in this case. I believe you are wrong. I can live with that. From my perspective, you need to believe that you are more significant than you are, hence your rejection that you are a parcel of genes programmed to survive and reproduce. You want there to be something deeper. You mentioned nurture first , you say. You did. I felt it unnecessary to mention it because it should be obvious to anyone discussing what we are that genes do not express themselves in a vacuum. I take that as a given. The bottom line is that you did not choose your genes or your background . You found yourself in an environment to which you are reacting and resulting from which ,patterns of behaviour emerge. The point is that, as I said to you on a previous occasion, I believe free wil is an illusion and I do not find accepting that is a burden. I have just returned from a trout-fishing trip which I throughly enjoyed. Determined or not, I had a good outing .