the allegory of the cave

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by JoeTheMan, Nov 20, 2005.

  1. JoeTheMan Registered Senior Member

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    What is the nature of reality? Are we deluged and absorbed in appearances, illusions, half-truths or is there a fundamental, underlying, absolute truth uniting and connecting the disparate phenomena we observe?

    If we're in the cave, is dialectic or elenchus (which is philosopher-speak for talking to one another or arguing until we agree) really going to get us out?

    Can we break free from bad faith, false consciousness and inauthenticity?

    And what, if anything, do you take Plato to be saying when he remarks that 'the good lies beyond being'?
     
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  3. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

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    I think that there is a small group of us who are trying very hard to find the way out of the cave, or at least trying to figure out if there even is a way out. I don't know if they will succeed, because I don't know if success is possible. I hope so, though.

    As far as Plato saying "the good lies beyond being," I think he means that whatever comes after death, be it heaven, hell, or just lack of consciousness, it will be a nice change from the cold, hard realities of life.
     
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  5. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    JoeTheMan:

    There are surely fundemental, irrefutable, absolute truths, such as the laws of logic, which govern this existence of us. The quest for necessary truth - but perhaps not all empirical truths in specifics - is an attainable goal and one of great import.

    Indeed. Philosophical discourse is one of the chief means whereby we can order our thoughts and discern what is real, as well as sharing said experience with others in order to both make up for our deficiencies and to make up for theirs. OUr community of dialectic here on SciForums is a good example of this. We each contribute to a larger quest for truth which we all are interested in partaking of.

    Indubitably.

    I believe this statement was in regards to "the Form of Good". That is, that true knowledge is not in specifics, but in universals, which give rise to the specifics.
     
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  7. JoeTheMan Registered Senior Member

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    PrinceJames:
    “Can we break free from bad faith, false consciousness and inauthenticity? ”
    Indubitably.

    This made me smile. I guess I should have been more precise with this question: *how* are we to overcome bad faith, false consciousness, inauthenticity?

    OK, if the good lies *beyond* being, what kind of reality do the Forms have? They're supposed to be *more* real than the fleeting, shadow-images of this world, and all the particulars (this car, this pencil, this bird) are participating in the universal form which they exemplify.
    But if every good thing derives its goodness from the Form of goodness, which lies beyond being, *how* can a particular good thing participate in the essence of good? There is a problem of interaction with these metaphysically distinct substances (particulars and universals.)
     
  8. JoeTheMan Registered Senior Member

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    "I think that there is a small group of us who are trying very hard to find the way out of the cave, or at least trying to figure out if there even is a way out. I don't know if they will succeed, because I don't know if success is possible. I hope so, though."

    I hope so, too. There *is* a way out, but I think any 'enlightenment' works only once, for one person--I can't use *your* method just as you cannot use mine. This is about the peculiar internal contradictions which are local to an individuals' mind. Finding your way out of the cave amounts to reconciling these contradictions, piercing the false veil of appearances to the unified infinity beneath. I think the trouble is describing this moment of a foundation, an origin beyond oneself, to others, and it often comes out as 'God,' or in Plato's case, the 'Good.'
     
  9. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    let's first understand right from te off--seeing you titlae your referring to Plato's cave allegory, that old Plato was a DUALIST. understanding this we wont get confused a to te origins of what ismant

    basically he is allegorically implying that this ature, Earth, life anddeath and regeneration is worth LESS than HIS idea of a World of Forms---obvously inspired by his idea of the 'changeless' order of the universe

    so for Plato seeing his 'truth' would free thepeople 'trapped' in nature and set ythe free from their 'chains'

    His ideal was some kind offascist republic with te likes of him and his buddies as 'philosopher kings' lording it over everyone and Nature and prohibiting 'magical thinking' abd art in general, because of competeition!

    i see theproblem MUC differently than Plato, and those who he influenced (and make no mistake, Plato's influence is still predominant in tis modern era!)......what te problem ISis NOT Nature, for tis is our natural home. it is te mindset which cuts itself OFF from Nature, which includes one's own body, emotions, feelings, and so on. THAT
     
  10. c7ityi_ Registered Senior Member

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    Unlike you, there are actually people who feel like they're in a prison here on earth, crucified between space and time.
     
  11. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    JoeTheMan:

    The process of philosophy, the search for truth.

    Oh, most definitely. The Platonic theory has its flaws. But from my knowledge of Plato, let me answer:

    When Plato speaks of "beyond being", as I noted in my first post, he means "being in specifics". Any given dog is not perfect, but the "Form of Dog" is. Where these Forms actually exist, however, is never truly spoken about by Plato. Sometimes they are envisioned to exist in a Platonic Heaven. They may not even have a specific existence at all, but exist purely as the immaterial universal specifics partake in order that we might draw connection.
     

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