The Big Bang and God

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by H-kon, Jun 4, 1999.

  1. H-kon Guest

    I just wondered what you would have to say about the Big Bang vs God and Creation.

    For me.. I dont believe in the Big Bang at all. I look at the Big Bang as a "lack of options". Does anyone have anything to say about that?
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  3. Plato Guest

    Well, there is no real need to "believe" in the big bang like you need to believe in God. It is just a theory that kosmologists use to explain certain fenomena that they observe while looking at the universe.
    If you want to throw the big bang theory away you'll just have to come up with different explanations as to how cosmic background radiation is so smooth in all directions of space, you also need to explain how far a way galaxies have these huge redshifts in their light and while you are at it give a good explanation why hydrogen and helium seem to make up for 99% of all visible matter and why 75% is H and 25% is He. While you are doing that you might as well tell us where all this stuff comes from ?

    If you can give a consistent explanation for these fenomena without having to use a big bang then you just made your own rival theory. This of course has to make predictions and these have to be checked with observable fenomena.

    we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,

    [This message has been edited by Plato (edited June 04, 1999).]
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  5. H-kon Guest

    Hmm.. that is a good point, but my point it that how can anyone know if there was a big bang or not? Isnt universe supposed to be 16 billion years old?

    Back in the days when people thought that the sun went around earth, and every object on the sky was going around earth.. it took a while to get rid of that theory.

    But since you know so much about the big bang, then explain all the things you just asked me to explain.. I cant explain it, that is why i ask, and i cant really believe that universe was created in a big bang, then there has to be a center point right? and since we have no idea how big this universe is, then how can we start thinking about how it was created? as for all the theories and all that we are saying about it all, nothing is more than educated guesses.
    But maybe you can "convert" me. I have little, or no explanation to how it all came about, but still i think i am allowed to question the theories of today..
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  7. Boris Guest

    In case you actually do want to learn a little bit about the Big Bang cosmology (including the answers to Plato's questions), here you go:

    Although, there are plenty of detractors for the Big Bang, and about a million alternative theories floating about. Here's a typical example:

    I am; therefore I think.
  8. H-kon Guest


    I just wanted to thank you for clearing my mind.. I am still reading from those links, and i have to say that i am even more confused than i was before i started this one. man i am learning something new everyday

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    I doubt, then i might be
  9. H-kon Guest

    Opps.. that one was meant for Boris :-s

    I doubt, then i might be
  10. Shorty Guest

    Why don't we all just shut up about how other people believe something that is wrong. Some of you are just acting like children. Myself, yes, I am a Christian, but I'm not saying that you cannot belive the Big Bang theory. I don't really care. So what if the scientists are wrong or if those that believe in God are wrong. I do believe that God created everything, but how he did that is beyond the comprehention of and human, or any other form of life for that matter. I have always thaought that there is a happy medium. You have got to figure that since God Knows what we know and more, he is the greatest scientist of all. And I'm sure that somehow his amazing knowlege of science helped him create something. Think about it, though. In the end, does it really matter how the universe was created or how it will end. Either way, we are never going to be able to stop it. You cannot deny the inevitable. You all just want to think that you know everything, and the Big Bang Theory is just another thing that you can get ticked off about so that you can try and prove someone else wrong. You should also think, though, about all the scientists who have become Christian because they cannot find a "logical" explanation to the begining of the universe.
  11. H-kon Guest

    If it really matters how God created the universe you mean? Offcourse it matters. It would tell us who we are, what we are doing here, maybe how we got to be, and all the other questions man is asking himself.

    Cant i ask questions? Get some input from all the intelligent people that I am addressing my opinions too? If I cant do that while at the same time learning from all the others posting messages in this forum, what is the reason to live then?

    I feel that the moment i stop asking questions about things that i want to know more about, i would not live, learn, I would just be.

    As for all the scientists that became Christians because they could not find any logical explanations, they stopped asking questions, stopped to learn about the "truth" and learned about what I believe ( me) is "the book with no answers" if there were answers there, then we would all know.

    Lori. If you read this.. please give me your input.

    Using BeOS R4 with Netpositve 3.03d
  12. Shorty Guest

    I'm sorry. I didn't try to make it seem as though you could not ask questions. I suppose my response was not really directed to you. It is more or less directed to some of the people who are out there reading this. I have known people who get in fist fights over this sorta thing. I think it is great that you are asking questions. I just believe that as a Christian, all of this will come together when I die. Because then, I'll get a chance to ask questions to the one person who did it all. You do have a very good reason for asking such a question. I did not fully understand your reason for asking it at first. Some people just want to know so that, as I said last time, they can find kthe key to saving the universe or simply so that they can argue. So I would like to say again, I truly am sorry for coming off too harshly.
  13. H-kon Guest

    I am sorry that i came on too hard too "Shorty" I guess i didnt make such a clear post when i started this thread.
    I am not a christian, but i believe in God in my own way, but when your and my time is up on this planet, i hope that you, me and everyone else gets to know what all this is about

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    I havent noticed that people gets into fights about this, but if they do, then i feel that they have missed the point. Be nice, ask questions if you have any, and try to learn something from it all

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  14. Odysseus Guest

    I'm not concerned by the Big Bang, or Evolution, or any of the boogeymen that are somehow supposed to disprove or invalidate Christian beliefs. I'm not one of those people who insist the Bible can be taken literally in every detail, nor am I one of those people who discard it. Consider: God has a problem of imparting the wisdom of his omniscient mind to our tiny little finite brains. Thus the language of the Bible is often "allegorical" in a sense because earthly language simply is incapable of communicating what God has to telll us. Thus the Bible can be at one and the same time (as I qualified, "in a sense") allegorical and literally true.
    While I share their faith, I get impateint with those who limit God by trying to dictate how he does his work. He works THROUGH nature as well as (occasionally) OUTSIDE nature in miracles. I won't be so arrogant as to tell God how to do His business. Nor should you.

    May you be in Heaven a half an hour 'fore the Devil knows you're dead
  15. If you want to know what god wants from us, try reading exodus, here he lays down the law with Moses and puts forth the ten commandments.
    There are millions of people who believe in god but don't know what the rules are or what they are supposed to benefit by those rules.
    The icon of Mary and baby Jesus was changed from the original concept of Eros and Cupid, how wonderful the christians can bend things and blind us by twisting ancient religions.
  16. Odysseus Guest


    There is another Christian belief in contrast to the one you myopically fixate upon.
    Pagans often like to attack Christianity for it's appropriation of the iconography of older beliefs, and attempt to dismiss it upon that basis. However, there is another way to look at that, one that was articulated by the poet Milton and also given credence by the great lay theologian C. S. Lewis. According to many believers throughout the history of Christianity, the reason for the similarity between, say, Jesus and Dionysus, and Christ and the old dying gods of the fertility religions lies in the fact that Jesus didn't come to make all the old beliefs totally obsolete, BUT TO FULFILL WHAT WAS TRUE AND GOOD IN ALL OF THEM. Under this doctrine, all the old religions...even the oddest of them...possessed some glimmering of the truth of which Christ is the fullfilment. As a Christian, that is what I believe. Christians who hold this perspective can accept even the existence of the
    "old" gods and nature deities...Lewis states in his writings that the only sin in believing in in the existence of such is to make the mistake of confusing them with and oputting them in the place of their Master, the Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible itself states there are "powers and principalities" of evil, and thus there may be their equivalents who are obedient to the overlordship of Jesus. I have never seen a satyr or a dryad, or encountered Wotan or Shiva, and don't ever expect to. But if I did, and I were to find such creatures were real, I would have no trouble accommodating their existence within the Christian faith as either faithful servants of God under his rule, or former rebellious servants of God now under the command of the Adversary. Man may be God's ultimate creation, but we certainly are not his only ones, and there may be other beings he created for His purposes that are simply none of our business.
  17. Odysseus,
    Then why is the 25th of December recognised as the birth of Christ when it has been calculated in the bible that he was not born on this day. It does not even give you Christ' birth date and yet millions of people accept that this is his birth date.
    Saturnalia day was celebrated on the 25th and there is no mention of Christ in this title.
    In religion people believe anything and need no proof and ask no questions about their god simply out of blindness.
    ALso, god asks no one to kneel before false icons. The icon of Mary and Jesus are false icons. You kneel before and answer to only one and one only - god.
  18. CMPHONEIX Guest

    Ok. I really think I had better clear something up FOR EVERYONE here.
    Are you listening?

    When you refer to the Pope, that's the catholic part of Christianity, Protestants are not in that whole holy hierchy thing.

    So Boris, for me, a Protestant, when the pope said evolution was a truth, that ment very little to me, he is not an authority in the Protestant part of Christianity.

    Also Protestants don't prayor bow to Mary or ANY of the saints. Atleast not the sincere ones.

    The reason the Catholics do that is because they are asking those saints to pray for them. It's kinda like me asking you to help me with a problem I have.

    But you're right, I don't go for that whole, kneel and pray to the saints thing. It comes too close to breaking that commandment, and putting an imperfect being next to a perfect one.

    Hey is just me, or when evolutionists get backed into a corner do they start bashing the Bible or what?
    PS>Plato no offense intended OK? I just had to make a few differences clear.
  19. Cow Registered Member

    How About this guys ...

    The big bang did occur and it was God's intention?
  20. Lori Registered Senior Member


    I kind of have to agree with the notion that it really doesn't matter all that much to us whether there was a big bang or not. And I also like the cow's idea, and tend to agree. Really, in my own life, I understand my own limitations, and those of others, and I really don't have the time or know how, or energy to argue or prove every single little thing that it says in the Bible. And why should I? I have enough trouble trying to get along with my husband and keep a roof over my head. I don't think that the most efficient way of "getting religion" is by trying every known method of disproving it, and then eventually giving up. I think that it's much easier and clearer to put Biblical principles to work in your own life, and then see and experience the overwhelming benefits. Follow the laws, or don't follow the laws, and then see what happens. Now, that's an experiment we can all perform, and we don't even need to be scientists. For example, the best thing I ever learned how to do, and what has benefited me most in my life, and what "proved" religion to me, was the concept and practice of forgiveness. One of the most powerful principles there is in the Bible. Prayer works as well. It's not just coincedence, but I'm afraid that unless you believe in it, you can't practice it, and if you can't practice it, then you can't see the results. But I can see the results in my life, and that is undeniable.

    God loves you and so do I!
  21. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    I'd like to, once more, throw a wrench into some of those Christian wheels. (Sorry, couldn't help it!

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    Quoting Odysseus (sorry for the long quote, but it's fairly representative of many similar statements):

    Consider: God has a problem of imparting the wisdom of his omniscient mind to our tiny little finite brains. Thus the language of the Bible is often "allegorical" in a sense because earthly language simply is incapable of communicating what God has to telll us. Thus the Bible can be at one and the same time (as I qualified, "in a sense") allegorical and literally true.

    What about the language of mathematics???! You know, that universal language that science has discovered, and in which the ETs make Contact happen? Was God not intelligent enough to conceive of giving the anscients a precise mathematical document, which would be impossible to corrupt through misinterpretation or translation -- because there would be only *one* way to read it? If God could create Earth, why couldn't he just put a Big Diamond Mountain of Divine Truth on it to last a trillion years, and inscribe mathematically and irascibly on the perfect face of that mountain everything he needed to tell the generations to come? Why play the grapewine game?

    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited June 24, 1999).]
  22. Odysseus Registered Member

    That's too small a wrench for some pretty big wheels. ("The mills of the gods grind slowly but they grind exceedingly small")
    As for mathematics, I'm not sure you or anyone else can make the bald statement that it is an infallible tool to reveal ultimate truth. It serves us well, but just because you seem to perceive it as having no limitations doesn't mean it has none. It's also totally bloodless (can't resist a gentle barb; as you too often seem to be.) If you were dealing with a population of Asimovian robots, equations might indeed suffice for holy writ----but instead, the audience is made up of beings who not only think but feel, who have emotions. The frosty precision of mathemtics is in no way emotionally satisfying for other than a few pathological cases like the Unabomber. Not only that, mathematics advanced enough to transmit such complex and intricate concepts and relationships would almost certainly be beyond the understanding of those famous tiny little finite mortal brains (possibly even yours, you think?} I cited before. Stephen Hawking and a few others of that mental capacity might be the only adherents of such a religion.
    Also, to a point Milton made in "On His Blindness" God doesn't need slaves or servants. If what I believe (and what hundreds of millions of other believe, which you so blythely dismiss---takes a real hefty dollop of arrogance to consider that many of your fellow creatures abject fools, while you---being the clever fellow you are---have figured everthing out) is true, there are uncounted billions of created beings to do His bidding at His slightest gesture. He wants fellow beings, lesser than than Him but greater than the angels, who will submit freely to His will out of love and reverence. Fellow beings possessed of free will with whom he can commune...even he did with some of the figures in the Old Testament. God's creation of humankind (and it bothers me not one whit whether that was accomplished in an instant by special creation or over billions of years through evolution) was not an act of pride and exuberance, but an act of incredible sacrifice and self-abnegation. If He wanted, the whole cosmos could dance in total obedience to His every wish. Instead, He made "a little lower than the angels."---and gave us free will to fully share the wondrousness of His creation.
    Stick to your cold, bloodless, Hobbesean conception of the cosmos. YOUR loss, not mine. And what if I'm right and at some future date you're rudely wakened from the big sleep all dressed up and no place to go?
  23. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    For your information, mathematics is neither bloodless, nor dry. To those who espouse it, it is beautiful and elegant. But of course, you are free to stick to whatever popular misconceptions you desire.

    I am not claiming that math has no limitations. (Are you responding to me, or somebody else?)

    What I am claiming is that any mathematically and properly constructed document would have one and only one interpretation, period. Mathematics is not a perfect language, but it is a universal one. It conveys the same ideas to everybody, no matter what the native tongue: 2+2=4, no matter what culture you are from. And a mathematical document doesn't need to use calculus or analytic geometry to convey its point; it can use nothing more than mere Boolean logic to make its meaning unambiguous.

    Concerning emotional appeal:
    You can still make it happen through a mathematically constructed argument. Besides, if God really did put a Diamond Mountain of Divine Truth on Earth, he wouldn't need to do any further convincing or swaying. Everybody would absolutely believe in his existence, and take every last comma of his word seriously.

    If God needs someone to argue with, he shouldn't have cast Satan from heaven. And he shouldn't be barring heretics from heaven either. That, by the way, would include me and my kind.


    Now, what was that about "hefty dollop of arrogance"??!!

    You aren't appealing to authority, or the opinion of the majority, to make your point -- are you?! Because if your are, you ought to believe that the Earth is flat -- since a whole lot more people used to believe that, than the entire global populations of the last few centuries.


    And aren't you the divinely-sanctioned authority on what God wants or needs!!! Man, if you think *I* presume too much, you've got another thing coming!

    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited June 24, 1999).]

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