The black hole "frozen star" interpretation is the one that's right

Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by Farsight, Mar 12, 2014.

  1. kevin78 Registered Member

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    Yes, but again, according to some the horizons never meet to form a single horizon.
     
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  3. river

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    Sure

    What is inside the balloon ?
     
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  5. kevin78 Registered Member

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    The people who say nothing ever reaches the horizon. I'm trying to say... Doesn't the end of GWs after the merger show they have reach each others horizons. and so, yes, they do reach each others horizons.
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    OK, just got your meaning off James....From an outside observer's frame of reference, watching something fall towards the EH, it is gradually and continually red shifted until it literally disappears from the ability of our telescope...get a more powerful telescope and we see it redshifted some more and more until disappearing again. We literally never see it cross the EH. From the point of view of the object or whatever approaching the EH, it crosses it and disappears into oblivion.
    Remember but in SR all frames of references are as valid as each other.
     
  8. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    According to who?
     
  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    You've seen balloons, right?

    What goes inside a balloon?

    Engage brain. Think. You'll work it out, I'm confident.
     
  10. kevin78 Registered Member

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    No, kevin is trying to say... The GWs do stop because the Black holes do meet each others horizon. Meaning... How would those people who would say they would not reach each other others horizon explain the end of GWs.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    I don't think I can help you. I don't know who those people are, or why they would say that. Maybe you should ask them.
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Hmmm, not sure how to answer that, other then, all we are actually seeing when BH's merge is two distinct curvatures of spacetime with their singularities. They, once the merger starts, would oscillate in dumb bell like fashion [sending out gravitational waves], then the singularities merge, and finally the oscillations settle down into a larger BH.
    I might have to leave that for James, as that's the best I can explain.
     
  13. river

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    12,760
    This is a mathematical journey of imagination .
     
  14. kevin78 Registered Member

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    Ok, everyone on this thread says things do reach the event horizon.
     
  15. river

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    Not me .
     
  16. kevin78 Registered Member

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    So, yes the horizons meet to form one horizon.
     
  17. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    22,846
    yes.
     
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  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Yes from the frame of reference of the person/thing falling in, it reaches the EH, crosses it and ends up at the singularity. But because of gravitational time dilation and redshift, a distant observer will never see anything actually cross the EH, it will just disappear beyond viewing capabilities..
     
  19. kevin78 Registered Member

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    Yes, I know about the distant observer not seeing anything reach the horizon. My point was to those here who say nothing reaches the horizon even when it has faded from detection. I was asking how they would explain the almost sudden end of GWs from the inspiraling black holes and then the ringdown signature signal?
     
  20. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Maybe this will help:

    When ordinary matter falls into a black hole, the black hole event horizon is observed to expand, even though from the outside we never see the matter actually reach or cross the horizon.

    You might ask how the horizon expands if the infalling mass never reaches it. The answer is that the horizon itself expands outwards to meet the infalling mass, by just the amount needed to give the "correct" horizon radius for the black hole with the infalling mass added.

    Now, in principle, things aren't any different when a second black hole falls into the first black hole. If you like, start by thinking about a small black hole falling into a big one. The thing with the horizons works the same as before. The horizon of the big hole expands out to meet the smaller hole as it falls in, and you end up with one big hole.

    But we don't need to start with a small hole and a big hole. We can start with two equal-sized holes, if you like. In that case, both horizons will expand out to meet one another, and we get a merger. When everything settles down, we end up with a single hole.
     
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  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    As usual, your response does nothing to address the question that was asked.

    Is this really the best you can do?

    Here's the thing, river: nobody cares about your unsupported opinions.

    Since everything you post about science is made up on the spur of the moment, and unsupported by any argument, there's no reason at all why anybody should take anything you say about science seriously.

    Why are you here?
     
  22. kevin78 Registered Member

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    Thanks JamesR
    Are you saying that's happening without using say... Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates or Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates for the black holes to come together as one?
    Are you saying, say, two similar size black holes can be shown to merge into one using Scwarzschild coordinates alone, and not have a asymmetrical shape resulting a continuation of GWs?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
  23. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I think James has put it nicely in post 317, so while we never actually see anything cross the EH, [just infinitely fading from view] we do see the EH expand. As I mentioned earlier, all FoRs are equally real, an important point.
    From the aLIGO web site.....
    https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/gw-sources


    From that same link, if we look at the GW170608 binary BH merger, the data reveals that the holes were respectively 7 and 12 times the mass of the Sun, The merger left behind a final black hole 18 times the mass of the sun, meaning that energy equivalent to about 1 solar mass was emitted as gravitational waves during the collision. https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/news/ligo20171115
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019

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