The Confederate Flag

So white people who wave the battle flag are intentionally racist but black people who do are especially gullible or stupid? Yeah, that's still racist.

And I've already told you that it's irrational to expect a show of Confederate flags against its use by actual racists. If that's your whole argument, it doesn't amount to much.

Supporters of the Confederate battle flag often argue that their support is driven by pride in the South, not negative racial attitudes. Opponents of the Confederate battle flag often argue that the flag represents racism, and that support for the flag is an expression of racism and an attempt to maintain oppression of Blacks in the Southern United States. We evaluate these two competing views in explaining attitudes toward the Confederate battle flag in the Southern United States through a survey of 526 Southerners. In the aggregate, our latent variable model suggests that White support for the flag is driven by Southern pride, political conservatism, and blatant negative racial attitudes toward Blacks. Using cluster-analysis we were able to distinguish four distinct sub-groups of White Southerners: Cosmopolitans, New Southerners, Traditionalists, and Supremacists. The greatest support for the Confederate battle flag is seen among Traditionalists and Supremacists; however, Traditionalists do not display blatant negative racial attitudes toward Blacks, while Supremacists do. Traditionalists make up the majority of Confederate battle flag supporters in our sample, weakening the claim that supporters of the flag are generally being driven by negative racial attitudes toward Blacks.
https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/687​

Get that? Traditionalists make up the majority of battle flag supporters and do not display blatant negative racial attitudes toward blacks, which means the claim that battle flag supporters are driven by racism is a weak one, at best. Supremacists are a minority of ineffectual basement-dwellers that the news has made into an overinflated boogeyman to stir up racial resentment of blacks toward whites and authority and generally race bait. That would make you the dupe. Too bad you also openly display racist sentiments, like whites being racist but blacks doing the same thing being stupid. That's literally saying they are less than, just based on skin color.

That's not about comfort, that's about protecting the right to life, as guaranteed in the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

 

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There's no scientific evidence of any kind for brain development or consciousness in unborn fetuses up to a certain age, nor do any more than a small minority of scientists believe that such development occurs, thus the idea that these fetuses are alive and conscious is a purely religious sentiment. Restricting people's freedoms based on your personal discomfort with their religious defiance makes you a fascist by your own definition.

 

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You throw this claim at your opponents that they are fascist as if that makes your stand valid and I say you are mistaken, and if there is any name calling to be made you would attract more calls that you are fascist than any other person on this site. And you have not noticed by all governments restrict freedom to some degree suggesting you really do not understand the concept of Facism...but name calling always gives strength to your opponent so go ahead and dig your hole deeper.

I posed a proposition re the wearing of a t shirt with a penis on the front of it and the words "fuck you" and asked you your thoughts and you presumably ignored that post because it clearly demonstrated that there is an accepted procedure in society to manage things that are offensive...very fascist of me no doubt but your inability to address such a proposition suggests for some short moment you realise your stand that a person's rights overrules protests that something causes offence is totally flawed...

So yes I do think that in a decent society things that are clearly offensive can not be left in place just because some folk see being offensive their right and demand that their selfish attitude is the only opinion that matters.


And frankly your response is disappointing, given your understanding of logical fallacies.

The confederate flag for many people is as offensive, or more so, than t shirt with a huge penis and the words "fuck you" and calling someone a fascist will not change that reality. Just as you would scrap the offensive t shirt you should scrap the offensive flag...

The Nazi flag is offensive because of its association with terrible acts and the Confederate flag has the same problem and for you not to understand any of this yet try to counter with name calling must tell you that you have lost this arguement.

Alex

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag

The modern display of the Confederate battle flag began as a response to the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s and continues to this day in support of white nationalist and white supremacist movements, some of which commemorate the defunct Confederate States of America. The flags' revival began with Senator Strom Thurmond's Dixiecrats in reaction to growing public support for racial equality, alongside opposition to civil rights in 1948.[1][2] Although never an official national flag, the most popular and widely recognized symbol of the Confederacy is a rejected national design that was used as a battle flag.
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I believe that says enough of the racist scum supporting this flag.

 

No it's just about monster trucks and country music hurr durr.

 

Don't listen to Gandalf, never seen a single black person in any of his armies, nor any Latinos or Asians.

 

Typical cherry picking rubbish.

You do realise just because it's found in print does not automatically make it true..if you want you can find "papers" written by "scientists" presenting intelligent design as a science and offering good reasons , in their view, that it should be taught as an "alternative"...what don't you get...the confederate flag is offensive to a great number of people that is the fact...or would you argue the opposite?

Mate it's just like the god thing wishing your views to be right does not make your hope reality. You can wish until the cows come home but the Confederate flag is offensive to a great number of people, that is the point. Folk may like it and don't see it as a memory of a Slave driven economy or hold any bad thoughts about it and go to church on Sunday but the point is a great number no doubt incorrectly see the Confederate flag as offensive and reflecting an unhealthy obsession with many undesirable things, war, slavery, 600,000 un necessary deaths, killings, KKK, guns, canons etc...decent folk need to find some other symbol for their "pride" as their current symbol has far to many negative links and if you dont get that you are just plain dumb...move on guys embrace the future not the past.
See if you can pick more cherries but remember you are wrong and cherries won't change that.
You have lost the arguement but please continue to humiliate yourself if it helps you build your self esteem...just remember to have fun.
Alex

 

This is what's correctly referred to as a strawman argument, a term you like to throw around whenever people reach logical conclusions you don't like, but actually refers to something else. I never said white people waving Confederate flags are racist, just the majority of them, and by your own admission the minority of non-racist white flag-bearers aren't doing anything to counter this perception.

Wow so 526 users on Amazon Mechanical Turk from three states were asked for their opinions, and then a model was created to correlate their attitudes on the Confederate flag to their attitudes on race. How freaking scientific! Meanwhile when hundreds of thousands from all over America working all kinds of different jobs get polled and say that President Trump's a piece of shit, you label it liberal propaganda. Please look up the word "bias" in a dictionary, it's essential scientific reading before you come and post in places like this.

 

everyone should have the right to murder their own children
those who do so are, most likely, mentally ill.

 

That's so fucking pathetic on so many levels!

 

yeh, well

 

I would think that any one attempting to force a woman to do anything with her own body is mentally ill...
No more than a rapist abusing the right for a woman to self determination.

 

agree

 

Life, as defined by science, is not determined by brain development or consciousness. Excusing killing based on your unscientific equivocation makes you immoral, by the definition of the science you tout. No scientific definition of life includes consciousness, otherwise most living organisms wouldn't be deemed living organisms.

And you haven't offered any evidence that a majority of whites who fly the battle flag are racist, whereas I've already given you a study showing the converse. And even making the claim that the majority of whites that do are racist but the blacks, or even just a majority of blacks, who do are dupes, is racist. Again, it's an unsupported claim based on nothing but skin color.
A straw man is you claiming I admitted anything about your irrational gotcha that one group of battle flag wavers could protest another without being conflated with the group they protest, thus lending it exaggerated numbers.

Do you have any better studies on that subject? If so, do tell. Or are they a secret?
There's a difference between simple polls and studies, using things like models and cluster-analysis. But considering your ignorance on the scientific definition of life, I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this conflation.

And I'd challenge you to show me where you imagine I've said polls are liberal propaganda. Most likely you are falsely attributing another member's words to me. Or you're just lying. Seems to be a pattern with you:

No doubt. Fascists do like to project. Just look at antifa and their calls to silence others, even using violence.

Governments, at least those protecting negative freedoms, restrict actions that infringe on the natural freedoms of others. People do not have a natural right to not be offended. Governments who coddle your precious feelings are likely restricting your natural freedoms as well. But again, why would I expect an Aussie to understand freedom.

Most countries have obscenity laws, especially to protect children in public. But if you're advocating for exposing children to pornographic images, please, do make your argument. Maybe you just don't understand the difference between the inherently obscene and the subjectively obscene. It's a false equivalence. But go ahead. Why should children be exposed to pornography?

And you're a hypocrite demanding that yours is the only opinion that matters. I say all people are free to have and express their own opinions, good or bad. I'm not the arbiter of what speech should be verboten, and the law already covers explicit threats and incitement.

Yet you don't even name the supposed fallacy.

Again, freedom of speech is pointless if it doesn't also protect speech I don't like. Only allowing speech we like is what China does, censoring references to Winnie the Pooh. Any group using its own subjective standard of offense to restrict the freedoms of others is objectively fascist.

Then I presume you have a refuting study? If so, do tell. Or is it a secret?

I've never disputed that. That's completely beside the point of freedom, which you obviously don't understand.

No, you moralizing to justify your fascism doesn't make it any less fascist. Historically, that kind of surety in fascist tendencies has led to people being put up against the wall and shot, just like the KKK lynchings.

 

I am not sure that you do.
Just to be clear. forcing a woman to not have an abortion is the same as forcing a woman to have an abortion. Either case is disrespecting the higher right of the woman to self determination.
All we can do as a society is assist the woman in what ever decision she makes.
Banning abortion and fertility control is immoral, to this fundamental right to self determination.
To force a woman to do something or not do something is no more than slavery and servitude...
I do understand this is an emotional topic and vexatious at the best of times...and perhaps another thread would be in order , however I do not think this forum is mature enough to deal with it ...so I wont be starting it...

 

So we agree ..not unexpected.

Do you attribute your projection to fascist leanings or just to your propensity to indulge fantasy.

What do they support? Are they part of your fascist network? Do worry about them you do have your guns after all...any violence just shoot them.. what is their problem anyways who do they want to silence...don't answer just shoot them they already sound different.

They certainly do..that is one of the god given rights.

Why would you, you must still find it hard to accept they let us out of prison.

First answer me this ...how many times have you been arrested for loitering in a public toilet?

All opinions that agree with mine matter.

Under my system executions would be much more humane and only bad people will be put to sleep.

How would I know I am only an Australian.

Well I was talking about offensive flags but ok you somehow want to talk about freedom of speech...do you find blasphemy offensive? Do you find bad language offensive..do you think we should have libel laws. Look you have lost the arguement re the flag thing so let's do this free speech thing...I promise I won't crush you and letting you have a go must help build your confidence.
So start with the laws on libel..get rid of them I say.

Sure ...so with the flag thing how many people need to find it offensive before we can call it objectively offensive.

You know I bet if we ran a national vote with a lead up public debate putting up pros and cons the flag would be voted off the planet...you could argue how the flag is a free speech thing and I could point out the negatives...and although the ban the flag case would be greatly hampered with an Australian running the ban it side of the show I bet the vote would be get rid of the flag.

A terrible loss to freedom of speech no doubt but you would need to follow the majority of sane folk who voted it out.

Well no..I guess you win then...all my concerns based on all the folk saying they find the flag offensive...so now with that study I can safely set aside my concerns.

As I said you are funny.

I am disappointed you don't have more cherries..don't tell me you could not find more...tell me do you know how they put that study together..you know who they spoke to etc...I am sure if I knew about their method I could share your confidence in the study.

No no no. Freedom is your illusion..go and try to travel in a straight line for a distance of 100 miles..guess what you will run into fences which restrict your freedom.. and they are there to protect individual rights of ownership...get on the road and drive your car at 200 miles per hour and discuss the freedom issue with the cop who pulls you over and arrests you..fancy him preventing your right to put others at risk..I can go on re freedom but I will round off by saying freedom is mainly an illusion and it turns on how your actions impacts others..in all sorts of ways and if you wish to believe folk should have the freedom to continue waving a flag that is offensive , that is your belief but it's morally wrong.. such a position ignores all that is decent...you can see how a t shirt can be offensive but rather than accept the concept you childishly sort to red herring the proposition clearly in an effort to avoid that you must conceed your position..heck I am only an Australian and I can see thru you...where does that put you on the ladder of intelligence...oh I could go on but you think you are right and clearly presenting rational arguements based on being compassionate just don't work for you..your loss..not just the arguement but in being a decent human.

Alex

 

No.
The near-complete lack of self awareness among even the most flagrant of American racial bigots is legendary.
( I have never heard any American lead into some stereotypical racist trope by saying "I know I'm a racial bigot, but - - - - - ")

Ignorance and illiteracy at that basic a level is not really excusable in an adult American addressing that issue.
Our information is not censored so completely as that, our history is available to us at very little risk and for quite small investments of time and effort and money, taking advantage of our opportunities and freedoms to learn and comprehend has not been punishable by the State for a long time now. WWII, for example, is a readily available subject, with reasonable accuracy in most respects, on the net or the TV or the library shelf for free. So are the speeches and political propaganda offerings of Generalissimo Franco, Mussolini and his media team, Hitler and his media team; so are hundreds of works by professional historians and ideological analysts and careful intellectuals of the three or four major fascist movements whose seizures of power led to worldwide war; so are the real time raw data piles of newspaper accounts and government policy provisions and so forth. Fascism and its ability to seize power in an industrial capitalist liberal humanist democracy has been dealt with in exhaustive detail, using many recent and legitimately comparable examples.

Nevertheless: the Tribe in general has no idea what the word "fascism" means, or what "fascist" refers to*. That's important, because when people know what the word "fascism" means and what "fascist" refers to they are much less likely to support fascism or join fascist movements.
Fascism has a bad name, for good reason. And the architects of the fascist movement currently attempting to seize power in the US know that - hence their remarkably successful instigations of confusion among the ignorant, inculcation of willful defense of said ignorance, and diligent devotion of large resources toward various protective Big Lies for the isolation of the ignoramuses from conflicts with reality past and future.

The inability to see what is directly and visibly in front of them and has been all their lives, especially if coincident with the forceful assertion of the particular and most flagrant nonsense that the propagandist was attempting to inculcate, is a hallmark of the successfully propagandized. It is proof of their derangement, of the success of the propaganda campaign that targeted them.
No one in America has ever met, seen, or talked to, a non-racist or racially unbigoted white man displaying the Confederate flag with approval for what it symbolizes. There is no evidence that any such individual person exists in America, let alone an entire population of them.

You never read - perhaps you will listen to a guy who knows what he's talking about:

"If you are looking forward from a place that is false, then where you are looking forward to is the road to hell" ( 45:24)

* They don't know what "capitalist", "liberal", or "humanist", mean either.

 

And don't forget; Democratic socialism

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#Democratic_socialism

 

Sure - with the usual qualifications, naturally.

That would include the people whose opinion of the Confederate flag is supported by evidence, demonstrably in agreement with the common physical facts, apparently accurate and factual, and written so as to be understood by honest and competent readers, of course.

Such opinions would be granted more respect than confused, conflicted, shit-for-brains illiteracies and ignorance from the victims of Republican Party agitprop and corporate authoritarian media feeds. Freedom to express opinions is not privileged isolation from other people's opinions of them, or immunity from responsibility for the direct and easily foreseen consequences to other people of one's expression of them. Other people are free also, everyone is accountable the same, that's how it works.

And of course governments, corporations, and other such powerful entities, difficult to hold accountable, would not be mistaken for people. The courthouse flag, the city-bought memorial statue, the LLC-paid advertisement, the motto on the door of the police car or the flag on its bumper, the verdict of a judge or jury, the Stone Mountain memorial to the morally bankrupt leaders of a treasonous and murderous defense of chattel slavery, are not examples of people freely expressing their opinions.

 

These are the relics of days past and should be kept in museums, complete with an overview of the prevailing customs and laws in those days and what advances in equality and observance of civil liberties have been made since. An honest account of History!