The Creation

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Buffalo Roam, Dec 19, 2009.

  1. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    God has certainly left us with quite a dilemma then. He can't be measured. We can't compare Him to anything material, likewise His very nature. Unless I delve deep into my consciousness I don't stand a chance of ever knowing Him or understanding Him. Even that is no guarantee.

    I guess you know where that leads us. Right back to believing your fellow man. I don't think for a minute that you would be the person you are today without having to first believe a human. No matter how learned and respected he/she may be, this human would be your first measuring stick for God. Anything he/she tells you to expect influences your decision, your thoughts about God. It's the first real data provided to you about that what you seek. God's good, He's great, he's any number of things. This a measurement of God, information, yet it comes from a human who is physical material. This before your first foray into your conscious mind.

    God doesn't have blue skin, wear a Viking helmet, have a beard, etc. Is this imagination at work? If someone came out of a self induced meditative state and proclaimed all these things about God then you have to admit imagination doesn't exist in the consciousness field, it plays no part in God seeking. If so then you would have to admit God is measured according to the material world just from the information gathered.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    My term for it is the real world, which tends to mislead less than the deceptive term "material".

    And I find it perfectly adequate for measuring the claims and assertions of other human beings, and evaluating their nature. If a deity shows up, I'll make the necessary changes in my approach.
     
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  5. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    I don't state the material to be false, merely temporary (or more correctly, a contingent potency of god). So in one sense the whole topic becomes ontological (ie what things are more "real" than others).

    What is false however is to use it as some sort of sufficient system to determine things that are understood to be eternal. For instance the whole notion of trying to make some sort of permanent settlement in the material world is false.

    So not being present during your conception, I guess you never sent any christmas gifts to your parents while the dna test is pending, eh?
     
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  7. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    He can be measured, but not in the anal sense you prefer.
    For instance when you say hello to your neighbour (assuming you don't live in NYC), you might bring in a few general issues of measurement (such as their general location - so you don't mistake them for their dog, potplant or the mailman -, their general mood or even if they are conscious and living), but there is no need to get an x-ray of their head because one believes all issues of self hood arise from the brain.

    No

    We can't compare the material to god. ...much like expecting the nature of the sun to be as mild as one's experience of the nature of its sunlight on earth has the same problems (IOW you can't hold a potency of an object as sufficient of the object itself)

    ... but you can take the potency as an indication of the object
    Fortunately he makes it easy for us by explaining how one can know him
    You too and every one else.

    Any pedagogical method you can dream up (except being a Trappist monk I guess .... but even then, not entirely) is intrinsically interwoven in the social context it appears in.


    Regardless whether we are discussing car mechanics, high philosophy or issues of retail strategy, generally we call them "teachers"

    (And as a further detail, if they're any good they can also give us clues for comprehension, literacy and application aside from theory)

    (and as a further detail from that, if they didn't have some foundation of theory to begin from, there wouldn't be a snow ball's chance in hell of approaching topics of application, literacy and comprehension)

    If you don't have the experience or are citing the statements of other similarly inexperienced persons, yes.
    I think I missed the part where you properly established that going into a (self induced) meditative state and letting loose with one's mouth (divorced and independent from the findings of any other practitioner) is the most effective and common normative description given as a means for knowing god.

    Sheesh

    I mean what if someone locked themselves in a laboratory for ten years and then emerged proclaiming that the he has a cure for cancer and the sun is made of jelly, would it cross your mind to examine his claims in light of the existing bodies of authoritative work on the subject given by other professionals ... or would you even reject them until you personally verify the deal with the sun and cancer?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2009
  8. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I don't consider human assertions and claims to be eternal.

    Anyone's.
     
  9. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Then you are already bringing some eternally constant values to the table.
    Never say never.

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  10. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    I don't measure gods, you do. You're saying God can't be measured against the material world, I say show me. I'm not telling you how to measure Him, all I'm saying is that you do exactly what you say not to do.

    Did Vishnu having skin come from an excursion into the conscious mind? However, you say any information from one of these sessions is not imaginary. Therefore I must conclude, if I am to believe you, that Vishnu has skin. I must also conclude that the imagination played no part in this information gathering session. Besides, why would a learned guru of the meditative state, an expert on God's incapability of being measured, announce any information about God? Wait..... you do it too.
     
  11. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    You're one step behind though.

    You're laying down the law on how god can be measured (and since your method of measurement obviously doesn't work, god is only an imagination .... yada yada yada)
    I'm telling you that the means for measuring god is not the same means we adopt for the study of things inferior to us (such as dull matter for instance).

    I even posted an example of how we don't even adopt such a means for approaching those on the same standing as us (such as our neighbours) .... what to speak of entities credited as being vastly superior.

    No more than the president having a particular colour of skin comes from an excursion into the conscious mind
    More precisely, he has form. The degree that his form is similar to yours is a question much like to what degree is the sunlight similar to the sun.

    And even you too are known on occasion to explain how because of something (usually an observation of material existence) god can't be a certain something.


    Actually the incapability is not in measuring god but in coming to the end of such measurements. This of course doesn't mean that anything and everything said is valid.
     
  12. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    Well that puts me one step ahead of you and the guru. I'm closer to God than both of you. You can't explain something that can't be explained and, even if inadvertent, this I have accomplished.
     
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    There's no problem explaining something that cannot be explained in (anal) detail.

    There is a problem in holding an absence of anal detail as sufficient to discredit a claim though. (Commonly its called blind doubt, the diametric opposite of blind belief)
     
  14. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    You're wrong....they're the same thing.
     
  15. -ND- Human Prototype Registered Senior Member

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    Which one of you 2 believe in God?
     
  16. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    In the sense that believing something for no good reason works out of the same dynamic as doubting something for no good reason

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  17. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

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    I guess I better not answer that one.

    If you can't explain it then it's not worth trying to, anal or otherwise. Any description of God is an exercise in futility. You said it yourself, God is beyond us, which usually means we ain't going to get there by meditation, drugs, brainwashing or any technique known to man today or in the future. Yet you try. The trying is more anal than the explanation by my books. Best to leave it alone. Accept that you just don't know and that the many who tried before you didn't have a clue.
     
  18. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Its not so much that I can't explain it but that you can't understand it. The main reason for this is that you think you already think you know how to investigate the claim and you simply give air to your preconceived ideas. In pedagogical language, this is called proactive interference.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, I am incapable of that - to the extent of its having meaning, anyway.
    I'm not measuring any gods. I'm measuring human assertions.

    If a god ever shows up, I'll adopt a different approach.
     
  20. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Too late I'm afraid.
    You are declaring that there is a constant state of affairs in existence that makes it impossible for any singular aspect to remain unchanged ...
    more correctly , you are measuring god based on the assumption that he has no state outside of human assertions


    Actually a more intelligent pedagogical method works the opposite way ..... particularly in the pursuit of the higher end of knowledge
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    As a rule of thumb, when you start confusing your own assertions with the actual establishment of a deity it's time to step back and reconsider.
    You might want to look up "pedagogical" in a dictionary. "Intelligent" we can agree to overlook, along with "knowledge" - - - .
     
  22. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    ironically enough, that involves examining the normative issues that frame a claim ... something you are reluctant like hell to do (since you assert that the whole issue of god is simply framed in human speculation)
    :shrug:

    In short, I know what I like and I like what I know are good travel directions for going nowhere.

    huh?
    You think learning is best examined divorced from models of teaching?
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not teaching - and if you are learning, you hide it well.

    In particular, examining your claims for their inveterate framing in bogus "normative" assumptions, such as the existence and nature of entities whose existence and nature is the matter of discussion.

    What is called "begging the question", in actual argument.

    I'm going to consider the normative issues surrounding your claims to be the ones appropriate in situations of human claiming and assertion, barring discovery of some other status of yours.
     

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