The deceiver and the angel

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by tablariddim, Nov 13, 1999.

  1. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    FyreStar,

    I'm really not trying to show off religious smarts. I know that I could say that a million times and it wouldn't matter, but it's the truth. I sure do have a lot of room for improvement in that area as far as I can tell.

    This is very important...the proof is definately not self-invented. Most definately not.

    The reason that the quotes you mentioned aren't contradictory to me is because I don't perceive the faith to be my opinion.

    If you will go back and re-read you will notice that I did not take exception to your response of "sure". All I did was say that I didn't understand, and asked you to explain.

    666,

    I felt that same way for a long time myself when I was younger. It turns out that I wasn't really getting it. I can't speak for you, but I didn't really understand what all was involved, and I don't even think I had the maturity to really understand what giving your life to Christ was about. I thought of that as more of a hinderance to me than anything probably. I was really turned off by the church that I went to too. That didn't help any. I still have a church aversion. Not a Word aversion, just a big-haired, overly charasmatic, holier than thou, tell you neighbor Jesus loves you type of aversion. It eventually took a lot of soul searching and learning and the humility definately had to come first for me. I'm not sure if it has to be that way for everyone, but that's how it was for me. Sorry dude, no pictures.

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
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  3. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Lori,

    I absolutly enjoyed the church I whent to. It wasn't opresive or any of the usual things most people think of. It was realy comunity oriented, I even knew my preist very well. I am reluctant to bring up why I do not belive, becuase it is very personal and feel that it is some what inapproriate here. Allthough I feel it will help you understand my point of view a little better. All I ever asked for was for the abuse to stop, but never happened until I was old enough to take matters into my own hands. I hear a lot of pepole say "God only helps those who help themselves", but what is a 6 year old boy to do? At a time in my life when I needed a God to help me the most he was never there. I was left to find my own way out of a hell I never chose. Today I am proude of the fact that I have come as far I as I have and in some ways further than most, but a good day for me is a day I don't feel like I would have been better off if my father had killed me. It is the fights I fought with out help from a God who never helped that leads me to belive that there is no God. If it is one of his "mysterious ways" I have only one question. What is so terrible in heaven that I had go through so much just to prepare?

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    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born


    [This message has been edited by 666 (edited November 21, 1999).]
     
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  5. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    666,

    Your feelings of abandonment are truly understandable. There is noone who could rightfully criticize your feelings - certainly not God.

    After reading your post, there is not much that I can say about your father other than his abuse was one of the heavy crosses that you have had to bear in this short life. You might want to keep in mind though, that the abuse which your father inflicted upon you resulted from your father having turned his back on God.

    The power of God is unimaginable, 666. It is so great that, believe it or not, if your father is still alive today and truly repents for the horrible abuse which he inflicted upon you and others and if he truly accepts Jesus Christ into his life, he would be saved.

    God's plan is truly unimaginable at times... It may not have seemed like it then and it might not make sense to you yet but, there was a reason why... even though your father had turned his back on God, God helped you to carry that cross of abuse and God carried you through your torture without your being killed... God gave you the strength, in time, to do what needed to be done to stop the abuse. God did, in fact, answer your prayers.

    You might look at it as God not having "saved" you from the abuse. Remember, however, that although there were many who could not understand it at the time, God did not "save" the Son either. Jesus Christ was crucified, died, was buried and rose from the dead for a reason.

    Your time to rise will come, 666. Your long-suffering gives you great options. One of those options is to turn your horrible experiences into something good. You have experienced pure guilt and evil at the hands of another and therefore you now have the ability to recognize pure innocence and goodness. You were taught first-hand what not to do when you grew up. You can use this experience to share your pain with other adults who might be prone to committing child abuse. Having been there, you can educate children about what they should do/should not do if they find themselves being abused. You can use your passion to educate entire communities about the absolute need to get involved when they suspect that a child is being abused.

    I am not telling you what to do, 666. I am merely pointing out some positive options. Best of all, unlike your father, you can choose to walk through this temporary world and beyond "with God" rather than "against God" and do the work of God, rather than that of the devil.

    God bless you, 666!!!
     
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  7. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    1,065
    666,

    I'm glad I called in sick today, and wasn't sitting at my desk when I read that. You can e-mail me off-line anytime you want to, the address is on my posts. I don't know how you feel about it, but I'm totally honest about things out here because it's so anonymous you know? I mean, it's not like I have to see you guys at work tomorrow or something. I feel like what TS said is right on. Sharing pain is a good thing and often fosters a lot of understanding. I can't even say how sorry I am that you had to go through what you did. Just like TS said, and certainly you realize that as a child, you were completely innocent. All children are completely dependent upon their parents, and all adults for safety and security and love and nuturing. That is why it is so important for parents to be saved in Christ and to then realize the true responsibilities that they have to God and to their children. I assume that since you went to church then, that your dad did too? Parents aren't just responsible for the physical well being of a child, but also the spiritual. For God to have saved you then, it would have had to have been through your father. What about your mom? What about all the other people around you? Your priest? Someone should have been there to help you. I would have if I were there. This situation depicts humility that I'm always talking about. That's why I don't understand people like Boris or Plato or others that I've talked to that act like this doesn't exist. If there wasn't a God, and we were just educated animals then why would you feel the pain that you feel? Because there are moral absolutes. And it's pretty damn clear to me and to you that we, as humans, did not create them, and it gets clearer and clearer to me every single day. And the One who did create them and why gets clearer and clearer. The pain that all of us suffer shows us that there is a God that loves you more than anything, and does not want you to suffer. You won't feel this pain in heaven. You don't have to now. I'm not trying to act like something like this would be easy to recover emotionally from, but I'm pretty sure that there's only one way TO do it. You will know though, going through it, that the pain does exist, and what it is a consequence of. In this life, we are cursed of our own volition to learn lessons the hard way, or to not learn them at all, or to pay for the sins of our fathers. THIS is why I bow my head to my Father and ask for forgiveness, and profoundly appreciate and worship His grace and forgiveness. This is a difficult question to ask you, but I will. Can you forgive your father? Not to forget. Not to condone. To hate the sin, but forgive the sinner. Not even to associate with him or to make him a part of you life. I don't know what your relationship is; he should be in jail if there is any justice in this world, but it wouldn't surprise me if he isn't. But to recognize that he is human, and does not walk with God, and to forgive him in your heart, so that you can let go of the pain. It's the only way I know how. The powerful thing about it is why you would ever even want to do that. That's the question you have to answer, and there is only one real answer to that question. I want you to have all good days. I want you to love yourself like God loves you. You can turn this around and be the man that your father wasn't. You sound like you are a very strong person. Maybe stronger than you realize. Where does that come from?

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  8. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    666,

    It's tough to live in the past and move forward at the same time. I agree with Lori that it is important to forgive those who have trespassed against you, but I don't agree that there is only one way to do that.

    I read a book about 20 years ago called, "Your Erroneous Zones", by Dr. Wayne Dyer. This was the best book I ever read in my entire life, as far as helping me get past the abuse I suffered in my life. It really made me see that no matter what other people do, I alone am responsible for my own happiness and that by allowing them to make me unhappy, I was granting them far more power over my life than they deserved to have.

    I highly recommend this book to anyone who would like to throw off the shackles of an unhappy or abusive past, and finally take control of their own lives and move forward. Good luck to you.

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    www.indigenousrocks.com
     
  9. 666 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    To all that responded,

    Thank you for your thoughtfull replies! I didn't realy know how to respond to the feed back. So I just sat there for a while and thought about what you wrote. I had mixed feelings about it. I normaly don't speak of my past becuase I feel it taints the view people have of me and don't like receiving attention for my past.

    Turestory,

    When I pass from this world I will at that moment know absolutly weather or not I am right and there is no god or if I am wrong and there is. At that time I will ask him my one question then pull up a chair and listen. At this point in my life I have chosen not to go with a religion. Instead I follow what I belive in my heart is right and just. At times I make misstakes, but hey I'm human. I am fordging a life that dose not dwel on my past, but looks to the future, what ever it might be. The first thing I had to accept was that my father chose his own path and I must chose my own. Mine just happens to be oposit direction then him. I didn't feel like you were telling what to do. Allthough I have already tryed to my hand at speaking to groups of adults at a local rehab center, but it's not for me.

    Lori,

    I do realize that there was nothing I could do. My father never whent to church, he was to hung over on sunday morning. My family was finacialy comfortable and lived in an equaly comfortable naiborhood. The type of naiborhood that rather not know or acknolege that that sort iof thing happened ware they lived, my mother included. It happened just long enough ago that people still feard getting involed in someone elses family affairs. My father is no longer alive he died on my high school gradguation(sp?) night of all nights.

    Searcher,

    I understand how hard it is to overcome the past. I have been fortunet to have had the chance to reach out and get the help I needed to keep me from following in my fathers foot steps and continue with the help to progress even further.



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    The Belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it
    seems to me the depest root of all evil that is in the world
    -Max Born
     
  10. SkyeBlue Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    260
    Cheers 666! I didn't respond in time, but thank you for sharing your story.

    I too have yuckiness in my past I prefer not to dwell on. Seems like you have realized the same thing I did - keeping the anger, hate, frustration, dismay, sorrow, all that crap, keeping it all inside you just poisons you. You have to spit it out, no matter how hard that is to do. I felt like I was giving up my 'self' or 'soul' when I did, but afterwards I realized it was a necessary step to take to heal.

    My tormentors still live - they have changed, and grown too. I am now to the point where I really have forgiven them, and I am better off for it. Perhaps some day I will be strong enough to even offer a hand of assistance to try to pull them from the muck, but for now I am staying clear.

    666 - thanks again for sharing. Sometimes talking about this kind of stuff is very cathartic (sp?). You have my support, along with everyone else's here, I think.

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  11. tablariddim forexU2 Valued Senior Member

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    I'm amazed by the response to this topic and how it's developed into something far deeper than its original intention! s'all.
     
  12. Lady O' the Green Registered Member

    Messages:
    9
    Wow, this thread is amazing! Hello and Merry Meet everyone, I don't have anything to contribute to this conversation, but I think I might have found a new home!

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    666, darling, here's a hug from me!(squeeze) And another one for everyone else, too (squeeze). Blessings to all, have a happy Thankgsgiving!

    I'll be watching you!
     
  13. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Welcome, Lady o' the Green! Glad to have you with us. Happy Thanksgiving and Blessed Be!

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    www.indigenousrocks.com
     
  14. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Aww...I love cyber-hugs! Thanks, I needed that, and Happy Thanksgiving everybody! I'm cooking a turkey for the first time this year, so this should be interesting. This year I'm thankful that Jesus died to save all of us. It's never really been so clear to me before until recently. So thanks Jesus!

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    God loves you and so do I!
     

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