The Durupinar Noah's Ark Site

Discussion in 'Religion' started by SetiAlpha6, Jul 12, 2021.

  1. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    I’m really not with you on this one.

    For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. This is the basis of Physics, at least I thought it was.

    This disallows free will completely.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No. That is ONE of Newton's laws, applicable only to macroscopic masses. It does not apply to quantum mechanics (i.e. forces that act at atomic scales, and that influence things like chemical reactions.)
    No it doesn't.

    However, the concept of an omniscient God 100% prevents free will.
     
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  5. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    Ok, so are we supposed to take quantum mechanics and it’s theoretical mathematical musings, which say some reactions can’t be predicted at the quantum level, most likely because of our ignorance, and then use that to say that chemical reactions in our bodies and brains function in the same way?

    Is that what you are doing, or something else?

    Seems like that would blow the Scientific biological world to bits. Biology Scientists can’t possibly believe that! Pharmaceutical companies certainly don’t.

    You can’t really either.

    We know very well how at least some basic bio-chemistry works at the scale of the cell. Outcomes of Chemical interactions are certainly predictable! The bits we understand are at least.

    Any examples of natural chemical reaction defying events going on in the cell? I doubt it very much!

    It is totally deterministic, when limited only to Naturalistic causes and reactions.

    Only a Super-Natural Mind, which you truly are, can have real free will. You are a Spirit, residing in a physical deterministic Natural body, with the ability to control that body. There is real evidence to support this.

    Certainly I misunderstand you!
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
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  7. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    No. It just means accurate prediction is impossible. The future isn't predestined because we cannot see it. It's not possible due to the laws of physics.
    In macro scales, yes, we can predict within a boundary of certainty and USUALLY be right. At atomic scales, no, we can't.
     
  8. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    If all we had was Naturalism, everything going on at our scale of living, thinking, etc. would have to be predestined from the beginning of Creation. Including every thought and word, both yours and mine, even in this very thread. Just an endless series of falling dominos.

    Calvinism, a heretical sect of Christianity, also teaches total predestination, somewhat similarly to Naturalism.

    I have personally never seen any problems believing in both God and free will. For me it is the only thing that makes sense of existence.
     
  9. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Unsupported assertion.
    Like Billvon has said: given that the Christian "god" is (allegedly) omniscient then free will cannot exist if he/ she/ it does.
     
  10. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    Please provide one Naturalistic physical process at the cellular scale level that is not deterministic.

    And...

    Omniscience has no impact on free will at all.

    Our free will operates within time.

    God’s Omniscience operates outside of time looking into it from an outside perspective without having to affect it at all.

    There is absolutely no problem here.

    It would be somewhat similar to God watching a movie. God, existing outside of the Natural timeline, can run it backwards and forwards without affecting the actors in it at all. The actors all have free will in the making of the movie.

    No problem at all.
     
  11. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Nuclear decay.
    Wrong.
    This is a made up "explanation".
    Can you show that it actually holds?
    Oh, bad analogy.
    Regardless of what "god" does the characters in the film perform identically every time...
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,790
    Nope. You are not paying attention.

    The underlying message of Heisenberg's work is that, in many cases, we CANNOT predict the future. We CANNOT ensure that given a set of starting conditions the universe will always end up the same way. No one can. Not you, not me, not anyone. What the future is is open, in other words. It is not set. It cannot be known 100% (although we can come pretty close with things like weather predictions and time to failure and so on.)
    If God is omniscient, he knows exactly what you will do, what decisions you will make, where you will go, and where and when you will die. You have no choice in the matter; you will follow the course that God sees no matter what.

    That would be a depressing way to live for me.
    OK good example. So God knows the movie - and in the movie (our lives) the characters can never make any different decisions than the ones they made in that movie, because God has already seen it and can run it backwards and forwards to watch the same movie over and over.

    Again, a depressing way to live.
     
  13. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    2,283
    I don’t think that nuclear decay happens inside the human cell, does it?

    But anyway, how is Nuclear decay not physically deterministic at Newtonian scales?

    And then please also explain how this has anything at all to do with Newtonian scale human bio-chemistry, which is certainly deterministic?

    If Naturalistic Newtonian physics is not controlling basic human bio-chemistry, then what is?

    God? How about that option? Maybe we really are getting somewhere?

    I don’t know, but are you sure you want to go down this road? Seems like you might be on the edge of throwing out one of your own arguments against the existence of God here.

    Thank You!

    And...

    Every one of the actors in the movie had free will at the time the movie was actually being made. The illustration however poor, ends there for me.

    While the timeline (movie) was still being constructed they still all had free will, even though there was a script that the director was using as a guide. Any actor or extra could have called in sick any day they wanted to, or added a none scripted word here or there, anytime.

    And even after it was made, as an outside spectator watching it 100 years later, I still know that they all had free will at the time it was made. Seems plain and simple to me.

    Are you saying that they didn’t have free will during the process of making the movie. Because that would seem to be inconceivable to me.

    We must be talking past each other somehow, though I don’t know exactly how?

    What am I missing here, because I really see no problem here at all?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  14. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    Foreknowledge has absolutely no affect on free will. There is no hard causal link between the two.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,790
    Of course it does. It's not the primary method by which quantum mechanics influences biology, though. Covalent and ionic bonds depend on where the electron is in its orbital when it's time to bond, which means there is some quantum uncertainty in how that bond takes place. This affects protein transcription and folding, mutation, DNA methylation, and a thousand other reactions that take place within a cell.

    We can know how those reactions go MOST of the time. But we can't know 100% - because those electron orbitals are not fixed in place. They are effectively unknowable at a small enough scale.
    Because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Since the location of an alpha particle within an atom's nucleus is well known, its position CANNOT be well known. It's not that it's hard. It's not that we don't have good enough instruments. It is that it is impossible, both in theory and practice.

    Thus, due to the uncertainty principle, the location of the alpha particle is NOT well known. And sometimes it ends up outside the atom, where it becomes an alpha decay event.

    See above.

    But the movie that God sees (your life) does not have any free will. It never changes. If you watch Star Wars a million times, never once will Luke decide not to blow up the Death Star because of all the innocent people on board. His course through that movie (your life) is fixed and unalterable. You may not know how the movie ends until it gets to the end, but God does - and it will never, ever change.
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,790
    Then you do not understand what you are talking about.
     
  17. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    Then that is not faith. You apparently do not understand the meaning of the word 'faith'.
     
  18. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    Every actor in Star Wars had free will when the movie was being made. Foreknowledge had no affect on Mark Hamill’s personal free will or on the timeline.

    Just ask Mark Hamill if he had free will during the filming of Star Wars.

    What do you think he would say?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  19. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    I have faith in the evidence.
    I find the evidence trustworthy.

    What is wrong with that?
     
  20. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    Quantum Mechanics also disallows free will.

    If your thoughts are the results of quantum mechanisms, then your thoughts are not free.
    They are constrained and controlled by those very mechanisms.

    You are merely a Quantum Bio-Mechanical Robot.

    Naturalism = No Free Will
    Supernaturalism = Free Will

    Ask Mark Hamill.

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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021
  21. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,790
    Yes. But you said God was watching Luke Skywalker in the movie, not Mark Hamill in real life.

    Luke Skywalker will never do anything different in the movie. His moves are predestined, even if you are watching it for the first time. No matter who is watching it.

    Mark Hamill will continue to do new and unpredictable things, since his actions cannot be predicted by science.

    If God is watching Mark Hamill's life as if it was a movie, and he can go forwards and backwards to see what happens to him, then there are two possibilities:
    1) God is omniscient, in which case Mark Hamill has no free will; he will never deviate from the future God has seen for him.
    2) God is not omniscient, and does not know what will happen. In which case Hamill has free will.

    Those are your two choices if you believe in God.
     
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,790
    Nope. Quantum mechanics says quite explicitly that, in many cases, YOU CANNOT KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

    Your ignorance of physics does not change this fact.
    Nope. That's like saying since your life is constrained by living in a gravity field, your thoughts are not free. Doesn't follow.
     
  23. SetiAlpha6 Come Let Us Reason Together Valued Senior Member

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    I strongly disagree and rest on what I have already said.

    Back to Noah’s Ark anyone?
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2021

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