I was thinking more about the Epistles of John rather than the Gospel of John (4th gospel). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistles_of_John I can't imagine many people reading them and trying to understand what they mean in the eternal scheme of things.
Thought you meant that but wasn't sure. My take us he is either addressing The Church as a whole as the RCC was often referred to as "She," or Mary, the mother of Jesus. Not Mary Magdalene. I say this because of the way he writes. Mary, the mother of Jesus and he were very close. When he speaks of her children, he is speaking of you and me and everyone under God. I will write more later. But I wouldn't run away in your mind with that it was Mary Magdalene for there is no proof whatsoever of that.
Interesting thread. A couple of points; 1) It is quite wrongly assumed that Christian Church equates to Celibacy. As far as I'm aware it is ONLY the Roman Catholic Church that has celibacy. Greek Orthodx, Eastern Orthodox, and particularly the Coptic Christians, have no such thing. Their priest marry and have children like everybody else. Please do not equate Christianity only with RCC. In fact, I think that the largest problem by far that exists and has existed within the RCC is this ridiculous celibacy thing. It is virtually ANTI God / nature. 2) I think it is quite probable that Jesus Christ was married, or at any rate, paired with Mary Magdalene. There are a couple of Frenchmen who wrote a couple of very interesting and exhaustive books on this, called 'The Holy Blood And the Holy Grail' and 'The Messianic Legacy'. Both books were utterly fascinating. I read them over 20 years ago - I reckon Dan Brown got a lot of his ideas from them. Edited twice; spelling and added to last line.
The Copts, I believe, were the earliest organised Christians. Their priests were married, had kids, and still do - I know one who has 8. http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/copticchristians.htm The word Copt is an English word taken from the Arabic word Gibt or Gypt. It literally means Egyptian. The Arabs, after their conquest of Egypt in 641 AD, called the population of Egypt Gypt, from the Greek word Egyptos or Egypt
Lakon; I'm not equating Christianity only with the RCC. And the RCC is the only "denomination" that I'm aware of that celibacy is a prerequisite to being part of the clergy. We are talking about the RCC as a mere talking point, nothing more or less. I'm only able to guess at best, who John was addressing, but my best guess or opinion is it wasn't a love letter to Mary Magdalene. But who knows for sure, right? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! As far as Jesus being married, I suppose we can all just offer speculation as that is all we have on the subject. Agree with you about the celibacy thing. I would like to read these books you mention, thank you. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Hi wegs; I read through the thread rather quickly - I wasn't directing my comment about the celibacy presumption specifically at you. It just made me remember that in fact, most folk do associate Christianity (preists, etc) with celibacy, so I thought I would clarify it. Cool. You sound like you have a real interest in this stuff. You simply MUST read 'The Holy Blood And The Holy Grail'. It is a real eye / mind opener. I believe it is definitely where Dan Brown got nearly all his ideas from, though he 'Hollywoodized' it all - and cheapened it rather badly. The book would now be over 20 years old - should be available for a few bucks 2nd hand - try abesbooks.com You'll love it !
Here is a confusing point ...many believe and I was under this impression, that the bible was compiled by the RCC, a few hundred years after Jesus' death and resurrection. But why would celibacy be something they wished for the clergy when there are so many passages speaking of "married" bishops, etc?? So many questions. And while I believe Peter started the RCC, catholic...lower case "c" means universal. Again...so many questions that may always go unanswered. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Edit to add ... Thanks Lakon!!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I hope I can get them on my kindle.
I don't know - I haven't dwelt too much on who started the Christian Church. Though I understand that the 1st organised Christian Church was the Coptic Orthodox, then Greek Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, etc. I don't think that the RCC as we know it, came in until much later. There was some 'schism' or something, around the year 1,000 AD .. The work 'Catholic' is from the Greek Orthodox liturgy where it mentions 'cathe oloici', ie, 'for all', ie, one universal church .. that is, until some men in pretty frocks and socks decided to have their own party and 'schismed' (ripped) it all up .. Also, as I understand it, Catholicism and Orthodox are very similar - perhaps identical in doctrine, except for, a) Petrine succession (Orthodox simply believe Peter was an apostle) and, b) head of church (Orthodox each have their own 'Pope') Doesn't matter. I like Catholics - except for their stupid and anti natural celibacy thing.
According to the book "Zealot" by Reza Aslan, it would have been unfathomable for a Jew of his age to be without a wife. Few sects of Jews did require celibacy, such as the Essenes, but they were a priestly organization, and Jesus was the equivalent of a day laborer. The idea that he was sexless was part of the Christian reinvention of him as a perfect human sacrifice.
I'm familiar with some of what you're saying here, but question: why would the RCC eventually move towards a vocation that required its clergy to be celibate/unmarried? Not that one can't survive without sex, but why create a hardship upon your clergy if the earliest "church fathers" were married? This doesn't keep me up at night...but I like to know the "why" behind things, you know? I wish there was a definitive way to get to the bottom of it.
You would think an advanced Google search will bring up the answer. I had heard previously the priests were having too many illegitimate children that hundreds of years after Christ they brought in the Celibacy rule. I think that is the sort of answer you may find. It is going to be a shocker whatever it was. Well here is an an article written by a RCC priest "A CONCISE HISTORY OF THE MARRIED PRIESTHOOD IN OUR ROMAN CATHOLIC TRADITION" http://angels_eagles.tripod.com/priest1.htm I'm not saying it is the full story but let that be the start.
You may have to enter that address into your toolbar; I tried to click on it and get an error message. While I'm not so annoyed right now, I'm upset that all those years of being taught as a kid ...even into college and thereafter...that the RCC's "rule" of celibacy was based on apostolic succession. That the main tenet came from Jesus not being married, living a "chaste" life. We can speculate about Jesus with no certainty BUT...the basis for which we see the celibacy rule today, is man made. If you read the link, it tells why. And that isn't historical guesswork. That is what happened. I defended the RCC when I was younger to all the naysayers. What a fool I must have looked like. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Idk.
There are exceptions to all rules so i would not say "unfathomable". Besides, if you were able to do the research I would be willing to bet (right here) you would find others in the same time\situation that were not married. Could be for a number of reasons too.
I tried to get the link - what I find is if you put the name of the article in at least we can Google that. Bliss is an unusual concept for me. Is that like walking in the countryside on a fine day, hearing the birds singing and your best friend beside you? That would surely beat ignorance!
Hmmm, maybe. It's that old adage..."what you don't know won't hurt you." Or piss you off. However you'd like to modify it, is fine. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I can think of one thing that I'd classify as "bliss," but I'll keep that...to myself. Lol Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
That's quite a bad policy though in the long run. When the truth does come out you are going to be really destroyed, or pissed off. I think I'd rather know the facts rather than have deceitful bliss.
I agree. No one chooses to be deceived. Ignorance is when you believed a lie, maybe? But you didn't realize you were believing a lie, see. You know? I grew up believing things that over the years right up to today...I've discovered aren't true. So...ignorance = bliss is true in the sense that once you learn the truth about something, you can't "un do" it. But the truth will set you free. That is where we want to be...in truth. I'm not naive but it astounds me, all the lies the various "religions" teach/preach. And you know why I think? Money. If you read between the lines in that link I posted, it talks to that point. Power and greed. Perhaps religions in and of themselves for some people.
My apologies to Gorlitz, the OP...we really went off topic. Sorry. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
