The Great Flood -- was there ever, and how 'Great'?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Boris, Sep 10, 1999.

  1. nik Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    44
    boris,
    thanx,i'll look into that site.i havent actually measured glaicers,i dont have a ruler that long, but ill check it out. but i dont see why a large planet going the OPPOSITE direction between mars and jupiter would not have an affect on earth. i dont know if youre a scientist or not, but going the OPPOSITE direction would double the velocity and/or force.mars looks pretty messed up,maybe it was from that planet,maybe we just get a little action here.i dont want you to think i like floods or that i want the earth to get destroyed,its just that there are a few ancient civilizations,the bible and a few modern findings that say this theory "could be" possible.im not giving up on this "cooky" idea.theres nothing else this credible.how come all you do is put down others ideas?dont you have your own theory,or share one?.........nik
     
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  3. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    nik,

    Well, I do have my own theory: the Flood never happened, and the Bible is full of it.

    I put down theories which are obviously faulty -- obviously even to me (and I am not even a graduate student yet...)

    The direction of motion of a body has absolutely no effect upon its gravitational field. Whether your purported planet flies along the ecliptic or orthogonal to it, clockwise or counterclockwise -- bears no significance for the strength of its instantaneous interaction with other bodies. The orbit, however, certainly has a bearing upon the duration of such interactions. Thus, for example, if it flew counter to the orbital motion of the planets, it would pass them faster, and hence would actually have <u>less</u> of an overall perturbative effect.

    Next, you seem to be oblivious of the scales involved. Earth and Mars are approximately 48,000,000 miles apart even on their closest approach! In comparison, the Moon is only about 240,000 mi from Earth. Now, the Moon is approximately 100 times lighter than Earth. And suppose your rogue planet is 1000 times heavier than Earth (that's Jupiter's weight!) Now, we all know Newton's law of gravitation, F = G*(m1*m2)/(d^2) where F is the gravitational force, G is the gravitational constant, m1 and m2 are the masses involved, and d is the distance between them. Since G is the same for any pair of bodies, let's ignore it. Let's calculate the relative gravitational force between Earth and the Moon (taking Moon's mass to be 1, G = 1, and using the distance in miles): F = 100*1/(240,000^2) = 1.7*E-9. Now, let's calculate the relative gravitational force during closest approach between Earth and the mystery planet located roughly at Mars orbit: F = 100*100,000/(48,000,000^2) = 4.3E-9. As you can see, even a Jupiter-sized body located near Mars orbit during closest approach to Earth, would have about the same gravitational influence on Earth as the Moon does. And even that figure is only a maximum during closest approach; in fact most of the time the rogue planet is likely to be somewhere on the other side of the Sun, greatly increasing the distance and becoming nearly undetectable gravitationally! And even that's only assuming the mystery planet to be of Jupiter's size, which is just plain ridiculous!

    Not to mention that the rogue planet, no matter what its orbit, is like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole of the Solar system orbital dynamics -- no matter how you twist or turn it, it won't go in.

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    I am; therefore I think.
     
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  5. nik Registered Senior Member

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    o.k.
     
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  7. cats Registered Senior Member

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    The flood and other Bible stories seem to be based on far older Sumerian writing. The flood may have occured farther back then we know and the evidence is too deep to find now. The Hebrews could have copied the story and gave it a moral twist from what actually happened. The orbit given for the Twelfth planet, in the book, is the very same constellations Halley's Comet passed through in 1986. Stichin may have come across the ealier sightings of the comet and said it was a planet as they may not have said what it was back then. Check the NASA handbook for Halley's Comet for 1986 and see for yourself.
     
  8. JMitch Registered Senior Member

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  9. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    36,613
    Only a couple of remarks today about the flood article:

    7600 years ago? That's a little too early for Noah; I might remind you that the Earth is, by Biblical standards, about a millennium too young. From the Hebrews up through Renaissance Catholics, the theological age of the world has been set at approximately 6000 years old, recognizing a start date of 4004 BCE. I must omit non-Abramic dates here, as I know very less than I would like about Chinese or South American creation myths.

    However, as I posted before, tales of the flood exist before the rise of the Hebrew tribes. Specifically, there is Sumerian cuneiform recounting a similar tale, which outdates the Old Testament by "thousands of years" (cit. Wenke, Robert J.; ref. to my 9/15 post).

    Specifically, I have no doubt that there were several floods which lent their experience to human myth. But the existence of a flood within two or three millennia of Noah's alleged journey still proves only one thing: that there was a flood. What we take from that is our own, I suppose.

    thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  10. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    Not to mention that the Black Sea is not even in the right location. (unless the anscient Jews used to live north of Turkey?!) Not to mention that this particular flood did not come through rain.

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    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited October 04, 1999).]
     
  11. Friplle Registered Member

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    5
    I read a story once (not trying to say this is true) that theorized that perhaps it wasn't animals that was saved in the flood.

    This story was that there was a flood, that was threatening the wild plants that the people lived off of. So they made the intuitional leap to harvest seeds from each of the plants, then climbed to higher ground to wait out the flood. After the flood, they were able to re-seed their foodsource from the salvaged seeds. Interesting theory, no? I think the bible is so twisted and changed from all the multiple translations and such, why couldn't this be a valid possibility? Agriculture did have to develop somehow...somebody was the first. And I find the idea of a tribe carrying of sacks of seeds much more likely than a boat carrying 2 of each kind of species.
     
  12. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Just a little humor...

    If Noah lived In the United States Today:

    And the Lord spoke to Noah and said, "In one year, I am going to make it rain and cover the whole earth with water until all flesh is destroyed. But, I want you to save the righteous people and two of every kind of living thing on the earth. Therefore, I am commanding you to build an "Ark".

    In a flash of lightening, God delivered the specifications for an Ark. In fear and trembling, Noah took the plans and agreed to build the Ark.

    "Remember, "said the Lord, "you must complete the Ark and bring everything aboard in one year."

    Exactly on year later, fierce storm clouds covered the earth and all the seas of the earth went into a tumult. The Lord saw that Noah was sitting in his front yard weeping. "Noah," He shouted, "Where is the Ark?"

    "Lord, please forgive me!" cried Noah, "I did my best, but there were big problems. First, I had to get a permit for construction and your plans did not meet the codes. I had to hire an engineering firm and redraw the plans.

    Then I got into a fight with OSHA over whether or not the Ark needed a sprinkler system and flotation devices. Then my neighbors objected, claiming I was violating zoning ordinances by building the Ark in my
    front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning commission.

    Then I had problems getting enough wood for the Ark, because there was a ban on cutting trees to protect the Spotted Owl. I finally convinced the U.S. Forest Service that I needed the wood to save the owls.

    However, the Fish and Wildlife Service won't let me catch any owls. So, no owls.

    The carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board before anyone would pick up a saw or a hammer. Now I have 16 carpenters on the Ark, but still no owls.

    When I started rounding up the other animals, I got sued by an animal rights group. They objected to me only taking two of each kind aboard.

    Just when I got the suit dismissed, the EPA notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your proposed flood. They didn't take very kindly to the idea that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of the Creator of the Universe.

    Then the Army Engineers demanded a map of the proposed new flood plain. I sent them a globe.

    Right now, I am trying to resolve a complaint filed with the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission that I am practicing
    discrimination by not taking godless, unbelieving people aboard.

    The IRS has seized my assets, claiming that I'm building the Ark in preparation to flee the country to avoid paying taxes.

    I just got a notice from the state that I owe them some kind of user tax and failed to register the Ark as a "recreational watercraft".

    Finally, the ACLU got the courts to issue an injuction against further construction of the Ark, saying that since God is flooding the earth, it is a religious event and therefore unconstitutional.

    I really don't think I can finish the Ark for another five or six years," Noah wailed.

    The sky began to clear, the sun began to shine and the seas began to calm. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up hopefully. "You mean You are not going to destroy the earth, Lord?"

    "No," said the Lord, sadly, "I don't have to. The government already has!"
     

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