The Hard Problems Of Consciousnes - One of the best cases for Intelligent Design

Discussion in 'Religion' started by LFiess1942, Oct 13, 2014.

  1. LFiess1942 Registered Member

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    I posted this for the author, BIGFOOT, who has registered here to talk about his essay. His further writings:

    Sorry, I normally have a very small window for reading articles and replying. I modified this article from a manuscript am still working on, titles “The Sword of God” It basically deals with a reconciliation of all knowledge. Am still polishing it and of course, since I am a student in most of what I am writing, my arguments may look to lay to professionals, but I do not mind criticism Its part of learning. Let me condense another part for consciousness as evidence of Intelligent Design.

    Wholeness and Implicate Order

    “The nature of reality and of consciousness is a coherent whole, which is never static or complete but which is an unending process of movement and unfoldment….. Particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something”. David Bohm early 1980’s​

    Some scientists have had the courage to tentatively approach some spiritual leaders of various religions, mostly Eastern, to find out whether they, they might throw light into the apparent mystical nature of reality, as revealed by Quantum Mechanics. Some have dabbed in Hinduism, others into Buddhism and other religions of the East, which claim that reality is a “Maya” or a kind of an illusion . There are some have even joined the Christian faith, reading critically at the bible to find answers. Others have come up with some bold suggestions, about the apparent confusing weird world that is inferred by quantum Mechanics. One of the scientist who gave a rather revolutionary view of reality is the late David Bohm. He was Albert Einstein’s colleague and former professor of theoretical physics at Birbeck College of the University of London. Bohm was inspired by the idea of looking at the manifests reality from a holistic perspective, when he was studying plasma systems. In his book, “Wholeness and Implicate Order’

    Professor Bohm suggested that we need to approach the sturdy of reality and the universe as one Undivided Whole, which is not made of parts. This wholeness, is in a perpetual state of dynamic, and coherent flux, manifesting what we refer to as “things” Bohm said that the perception of particles that communicate instantly at a distance is merely an illusion, and in fact, these particles are essence of the same “something” that is manifesting the reality that we perceive. Bohm saw our physical reality being a manifests phenomena as an order, unfolding from a more complex order which is hidden within it, which he called an implicate order. He said, “The nature of reality and of consciousness is a coherent whole, which is never static or complete but which is an unending process of movement and unfoldment….. Particles are not individual entities, but are actually extensions of the same fundamental something”. (David Bohm Wholeness and Implicate Order’ 1980)

    David Bohm also argued that what happened during the EPR experiment is not that , subatomic particle were moving and having a mystical communication. He suggested that the idea of communication was an illusion. That its not as if one were applying an experiment in two particles. Rather most likely, it was the same particle! He gave the following illustration. Imagine an aquarium with a fish. Imagine, also that you are not able to see this aquarium directly, but that your knowledge of it and what is in it, come from two television monitor in a room. These two monitors receive signals from two television cameras, one in front of the aquarium, and the other at its side. As you look at these two television monitor connected to different cameras, you might assume that the fish on each screen is a different entity. But as you closely observe them, you notice that there is some strange relationship between them, in that when ever one turns right, the other one makes a contra turn. When one is staring straight ahead, the other is staring at the side. At some time, you might even think that the two fish are communicating with each other. But this is not the case. Its just one fish, whose perception of it is distorted by the mechanism of observation. Bohm says that this is what happened in regard to measurement of subatomic particles by Allan Aspect team.

    He suggested that there is a reality of a more complex dimension, that we are not yet privy too, and only gets inferences from its potions. This is the reality which he explains as “Wholeness” Bohn suggests that there is an implicate order, enfolded in the reality we perceive, and out of which this order we perceive as physical reality unfolds, as an explicit it order of appearances, and then enfolds back into the Implicate Order. To David Bohm, everything is interconnected in One unified unbroken whole. He says, “If man thinks of the totality as constituted of independent fragments, then that is how his mind will tend to operate, but if he can include everything coherently and harmoniously in an overall whole that is undivided, unbroken, and without a border then his mind will tend to move in a similar way, and from this will flow an orderly action within the whole. (David Bohm, Wholeness and the Implicate Order, 1980) This idea of unbroken whole, has also been accepted by other leading scientists. A French physicist Bernard D’Espagnat appear to have agreed with Bohm when he said that “the entire notion of an external, fixed, objective world now lies in conflict not only with quantum theory, but in facts drawn from actual experiments…. in some sense all these objects constitute an indivisible whole.”

    According to Bohm the universe exists, as an implicate order, out of which, and explicit order unfolds as the physical reality we apprehend. The explicate order is the one that appears to exist. In this reality of explicit order, there appears to be boundaries, where parts make up the whole and things appear “spatially extended” and existing , in “space” and “time”. In the implicate order, however, whole makes the parts, in a kind of holographic state. It’s a timelessness reality of unbroken wholeness, an everlasting consciousness, where there are no boundaries, space, or time. There is only Oneness. This implicate Order, governs and determines the manifest reality.

    The Holographic Paradigm

    “As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter.” Max Planck​

    David Bohm has further suggests that the whole universe, is structured like one gigantic virtual phantasm, or hologram. A Hologram represents both visible and invisible image. This is a three dimension virtual image that is produced using coherent light, of a laser beam, whereby a light wave interference pattern is recorded on a film, and then reproduced as a three dimension image, when illuminated. In creating a Hologram, a laser beam is split in to two by a beam splitter . One laser beam (the object beam) is shone on an object, and the other beam, (the reference beam) shines directly and acts as a guide of the other. Both beams are then joined together and recoded on a special photographic plate. If one shines a laser beam on this plate, a three dimension holographic image of the object appears. What is interesting about this image, is that even if you tear potions of the plate, the holographic image does not get cut off or. Rather, it continues to appear as a whole, only that it gets more and more blurred as more and more parts of the plate are cut. Thus, the information about the whole image appear to be written in every part of the plate. That is, every part of the image, contains information about the whole image! Bohm claimed, that the universe and our reality is also fashioned like this holographic film. It explains the so-called, “spooky communication at a distance” inferred to by Einstein, where particle appear to communicate instantaneously. What appears to us as separateness entities with boundaries is actually an illusion. Bohm argues that this holographic image is an example of his idea of an implicate unfolding an explicit order. The three dimension image produced, is an explicit order or unfolded order. The information contained about the image in the beams is an implicate order or enfoldment. Therefore according to Bohm, the physical universe, is an emergence from an implicate order of quantum information potential which organizes itself and unfolds an explicate order which we perceive as realty. ( See The Essential David Bohm)
     
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  3. LFiess1942 Registered Member

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    The Holographic Universe

    “We are part of nature as a whole whose order we follow”. (Spinoza, Ethics, 1673)​

    David Bohm extends his idea of holographic nature of reality, and suggests that whatever we perceive as reality are not “things” but rather, a holomovement of ideas, which are interrelated, and part of the whole, containing information about the whole from each part. In this idea of the reality, David says that we should recognize it as “movement” and “totality” This Holo-movement Bohm says, has two constituents. Movements and appearances. Its movement which creates appearances. Appearances suggest boundaries which in reality do not exists. But in itself, its one humongous virtual non-local reality, which is enfolding, and unfolding, as an explicit order, out of an implicate order, of unbroken whole, a timelessness, space less and one without boundaries. “The enfolding-unfolding universe and consciousness” Events and objects perceived are mare ideas, created by the mind, and hence, it imposes “space” “time” and “boundaries” as it interprets and gives meaning to reality. But the whole, is unbroken Oneness. The non-locality of universe, and the quantum entanglement, leads to the idea, that given that the totality that we observe is mare movement of wave like patterns of energy, in this Holo-movement, all is energy, and movement. The universe therefore unfolds like a gigantic phantasm, a Ghostly crystal ball, of totality where there exists no parts, but one wholeness or oneness. What is seen in our physical reality, as the reality of “space and time”, is in the implicate order, or a holo-movement of consciousness. In this wholeness, there is information about the whole universe that is contained in every part of the universe however small and every part of the universe, contains information that can replicate it. In this a timeless, space less, boundary less reality, one make all. In essence, every part of the universe is itself a seed of the universe. One can also imagine the universe as a humongous ghostly crystal ball of light, in which matter is a projection or an appearance of a wave motion of light, from a deeper reality, of the implicate order. This light has been coherently directed, appearing as if it has been slowed down, to actualize what we perceive as matter and reality, which include galaxies, stars, planets, and everything we observe, including ourselves. In this crystal ball, everything is light differentiated and movement and therefore connected as a Hologram.
     
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  5. LFiess1942 Registered Member

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    The Dream Reality

    “And so, He did this so that they might seek the deity and, by feeling their way towards Him, succeed in finding Him; and indeed he is not far from any of us, since it is in Him that we live and move and exist, as in deed some of you own writers have said: We are his Children” Acts 17: 27-27
    Let us, for the purpose of further demonstration compare this so-called physical reality with another kind of reality. This reality, is the dream reality. When he is asleep, we find that the Mind of Man, is a generator of a reality we call “Dream State” This reality, generated by the mind, seems quite real to us, when we are asleep. The dream reality replicate the reality we find ourselves in when we arise. In the dream reality, everything we experience assumes total authenticity. It appears so real, such that its impossible to imagine that all that all that we experience in the dreamland, the people we meet, the places we go to, the things we do, is all generated by the mind.

    Nobody knows he is dreaming when he is in dream state. Its difficult to consciously recognize when in the dream state, that we are all that has happened in the dream reality. That we were the people, the places, and the things that we did. That we were both, the generators, and experiencers of the dream reality. In our dream state, our mind behave as it its receiving sensory data, just as in the waking stated, and these senses appear to function just as well as if we were awake. We can see, smell, touch, taste, etc. In that dream state, our mind convince us that this drama unfolding in the dream state we are experiencing, is “real” “true” and “out there” differentiated from us, who are experiencing it. That this dream reality, is disconnected from us, and separate and apart from us, and we are merely experiencing it. It appears objective and physical, and indifferent to us as subjective observers . Yet, when we wake up, this illusion disappears. We find that it was all a dream. Whatever happened, the people we met, the things we did, that it was all “us”. We were these people, we were these places, we were the things, and we were these experiences. Our mind generated all this reality. It did not exist, apart from our mind. The mind expressed, it, and experienced it.

    Now, in our waking state, we find ourselves in another reality, exactly which appears as a replication of the dream reality. In this reality, our senses, convince our minds that this reality we are now experiencing in our wakeful state, is real. Its out there, its true. Its physically separate, and disconnected from us. It exists apart from us. That we are mare its observers, who have a subjective experience of the separate, objective and disconnected reality. However, one thing we have just found out is that this waking reality is as much a generation of our mind, though our senses experiences, just as the dream reality is a generation of the same mind when it was asleep. This waking reality, is a reality perceived through our sensory organs, which our mind impose parameters, and interpret as existing out there. Our senses tells us that whatever is out there, be it “things” or “people” is separate from us. Yet, this reality, the waking reality, is as much a generation of the mind just as the dream reality. Without the mind interpreting these sensory data, thus experiencing this reality, we cannot tell what these “things in themselves are”.

    The main question is this; why, should we accept this waking reality as the true reality, and reject the dream realty as an illusion, yet, both are a creation of the same mind? The point is, if at all, when we woke up we found that all that we dream was us, why should we accept the waking reality, any less a dream reality, than the reality generated when we are asleep?

    Science has at last indicated that all physical realty is actually one unbroken whole, made of spherical standing light waves, in motion, actualizing what appears as objective matter. That somehow, even if we are not conscious of it, we are all connected, with everything and everyone, no matter the appearance of separateness. Quantum Mechanics, have shown that the physical reality is non-local, and entangled at quantum realm, existing in a state of supper positioning and only becomes real when observed.

    That quantum coherent superposition of states. Quantum entangled of wave structure of matter, in the quantum realms reduces matter and reality as a waves of indeterminate state. Matter and reality is basically, Wave, and Motion. That means that, the macro structures , or entities that have been manifested by these quantum super-positioned entities do not in fact, have any definite reality until its observed. That is, at the macro level, it becomes impossible to talk about any physical object having definite properties independent from our observation, if at all, the quantum systems that has manifested its exists as a wave of probability! Its only observation that gives raise to reality and appear to give reality a definite and therefore objective state. Consequently, the possibility of a definite reality existing apart from observation also becomes illogical.

    Therefore due to the apparent entanglement property that is to be found at the quantum realm, it not possible to distinguish between internal subjective experience and external objective reality. And given that this reality exists as quantum supper positioning, the only reality we can be sure of, is the present observable moment. And that too, is fleeting, as an object coherent superposition. Its reality that becomes real when its observed. And therefore it’s a reality that is made real by the observer! It cannot exists separate and independent from the observer, and therefore, its entangled with the observer! The Observed, and the Observer are reduced to an idea, unfolding as an experience.

    Because of the entangled state of quantum systems, it means that there exists a Quantum Interconnectedness of all and in all, and therefore, just as in a dream reality the perception of separateness of the reality we were generating and experiencing was merely an illusion, in this waking reality, our sense of separateness, is also merely an illusion, caused by our subjective interpretation through sense experience. What waking up confirms to us about the dream state and the dreamer, is the same thing that Quantum entanglement, and super positioning of states of systems has confirmed to us, about the so-called “Objective reality” and the “subjective observer”! That in as much as all dream reality was generated by our mind, and we were all that we experienced in this dream reality, this waking reality we wake up to, is also generated by us as observers. We are therefore as much generators and the ones who experience the physical reality, as we are generators and also the ones who experience the dream reality.

    From Quantum Mechanics, we have also learned that Matter is not made of small things. We cannot pin down the ultimate substance that matter is made of. It exists as super positioning of states, as wave of probabilities. That means that, its not possible to prove the existence of anything, except consciousness. Reality that is perceivable through Consciousness necessitates Conscious observers, in order to perceive it. All that exists, therefore is consciousness. Its consciousness that has generated reality, which we experience, because its consciousness that observes and interpret the same reality. We as observers, as part of Consciousness who is God, generate this reality, and experience the same reality.
     
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  7. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Your long, rambling narrative, your sloppy grammar and typos, your lousy rhetoric (vague jargon filled rant), your gratuitous attacks on science and your inability to organize a clear cohesive proposition supported by facts and evidence makes this a really painful tirade to read, and impossible to engage in meaningful dialogue.

    Let me rewrite what you seem to want to say:

    1. Physicists have discovered that particles have a dual wavelike nature.
    2. Physicists have discovered that particles are governed by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.
    3. Science fails to explain consciousness.
    4. Yet consciousness allows people to perceive the matter which is governed by (1) and (2).
    5. Therefore Intelligent Design is proven (?)
    6. Something about the Trinity which I ignored since you obviously aren't talking to your readers.


    Are you by any chance taking medication that we should be aware of, or suffering from an impairment which limits your capacity to construct a clear concise opening statement?
     
  8. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    You seem to treat brain cells with the "Mind" You need to understand that there is a difference between ?The Brain" and "The Mind" Mind, is not the brain, just the way that in computer world, "The Hardware" if NOT The Software" Brain, is just a "Housing" that the Mind uses to express the "Being" in you. That's why in "Near Death Experiences" your Mind can literally move out of your body, and you can observe yourselves out of your body, then reenter. Our "Bodies" are just like "Space Suits" which we use to experience consciousness here on earth. So, your argument that Immaterial is generated by "Material Mind" kind of hits a dead end.
     
  9. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    Hey thanks for reading. Looks like you got my point after all. Some of us are not so smart and we need to say as much as we can in order to convince ourselves before we convince others. BTW. Am just a fun of Physics, not an expert.
     
  10. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    Genesis story is about a Timeless being who is God, creating an earth with time. So, time that God took to create everything is not "Absolute"
    as in "Six Days" Rather, its God (Who is Almighty and does not succumb to fating thus needing to rest) sharing creative activity with Man, and declaring a day for Man to rest
     
  11. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Well I thought I sorted it out but I now see there are THREE THREADS trying to argue religion against science.

    Why are you using two user names? Why not just keep all of this in one thread so people know which one to reply to?

    EDIT: Make that FOUR THREADS! What's up with that?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    As I said, I am learning Two names? which is the other?
     
  13. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    'BIGFOOT' and 'LFiess1942' look to me as if they might be the same person, using two usernames.
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    to LFiess1942 and BIGFOOT, if not his sock puppet Here is the summary, in full, from the first link I gave for you to learn from:

    Summary: This definition of one’s self as an informational process in a simulation, not a physical body, permits you to have GFW and make other violations of physical laws, especially in your dreams, when sensory guidance of the simulation is weak or absent. For example, some people sincerely report “out of body” experiences etc. These physically impossible experiences and GFW are directly experienced and thus have a strong claim to being “real.” In contrast, the existence of a physical world is only inferred from these direct experiences. Bishop Berkeley argued consistently that it may not exist, but he required a God to give him his experiences. My view is similar to his in some aspects (I do not exist as a physical object in the material world.) but it makes no reference to God. Instead, a brain-based simulation is creating both my experiences and me. Being non-physical is the price one must pay for GFW if one rejects miracles that violate physics.
    (End of summary)
    Thus, we can only be sure our consciousness exist, but with my RTS postulate, I assume that consciousness is a creation of my brain; in part because it is altered or even turned off by drugs that act on the brain; however, the good Bishop Berkeley could have been correct, about 300 years ago. - I don't have a body or brain in it.

    It is a choice to believe as I do and the essay, the above is the summary of, allows me (an immaterial agent) to have my own Genuine Free Will, GFW. The good Bishop's POV does not have GFW or even conceptually allow that. His free will is only the illusion of free will as his every thought is created by his "greater being."

    I also note that in my RTS view that what we experience / perceive in dreams and when we are awake is created exactly the same way - in a Simulation, mainly in parietal cortex. The only difference is that things we may do in dreams don't kill you so there has been no evolutionary selection to make that "reality" conform to the physical one, but there is strong selection pressure to make the reality we perceive when awake and acting on our perceptions, track the "external physical reality" I assume does in fact exist.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Sure seems that way. One arrived on Monday the other three days later - they hold same creationist POV. I don't know how to do it, but we can check to see if their internet service providers are the same. It would be better (for them) to just admit that before a more skilled mod checks. All 18 of Bigfoot's post are in this thread!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  16. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Both posters have grammatical mistakes, indicating a non-native speaker.

    Despite some mistakes, the OP was well argued.
    I don't know if I agree with the arguments, I haven't analysed them,
    but they were well expressed.
    A thesis?
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2014
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Here is the last sentence of the OP, with part made bold by me:
    " Our uniform experience affirms that specified information-whether inscribed hieroglyphics, written in a book, encoded in a radio signal, or produced in a simulation experiment-always arises from an intelligent source, from a mind and not a strictly material process.”

    That certainly seems true but these material sources, consider specifically a book, for sake of discussion: A book is paper with a limited set of ink spots on the paper. It can convey information from the writer to the reader only if they share common rules. There really is no information in the book per say. Same is true of the radio signal etc.

    In WWII, there were many thousand hours of recording of the modulation of German radio signals made by the British, but no information was in them for the British until after the Enigma code was cracked. Then and only then did sender and British receiver have the common knowledge that let the signals be "information" for the British. Like wise Mandarin ink spots on paper have no information for me. The "information" is not in the ink spots, but via common rules is ADDED or created in the mind of the receiver from the ink spot stimulus of his visual system and his rules.

    Normally, or at least often, there is an "intelligence" creating some information, but that need not be the case. For example yesterday the Dow Jones Industrials closed at 16,380.41 but no "Intelligence" created that information. Rain falling on me as I walk outside is "information" about the weather, created by me, not any other intelligent sender or creator. The red traffic light becoming green is information I can and do act on, with no intelligent creator sending it to me. etc.

    SUMMARY: "Information" always does exist in the mind of some intelligent receiver, but need not have an intelligent creator. - Thus the OP while "well written" is false in this last sentence assertion (and many others)*. Don't confuse, as many do, the ink spots on paper, etc. with information. A book, by its self, has no mind, no intelligence, or information. It is just ink spots on paper.

    * All of his arguments that evolution is false are in fact false - Evolution may be the most confirmed empirical thing we know.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2014
  18. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    The first post in this thread appears to consist of three short essays, on different philosophical subjects loosely related to mind, probably written at different times. (Were they written for an undergraduate philosophy class?)

    The first is a pretty good short summary the so-called 'Hard Problem' argument against physicalism in the philosophy of mind. Despite the subject line's promise, it doesn't address what the relevance supposedly is between the 'Hard Problem' and 'Intelligent Design'. The second presents a very 'holistic' layman's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and and then tries to relate QM to the problems of consciousness, without a whole lot of details, specifics or success. The third essay seems to be a summary of apologist Stephen Meyer's questionable 'Signature in a Cell' assertion that information can only come from intelligence, so that the information encoded in DNA must have been put there by the Creator.
     
  19. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    || LFiess1942 is perma-banned, but somehow it doesn't show below his name.
     
  20. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    We are two, but not of a kind. LFiess1942 Sounds Atheistic. I am not very sure of that. He posted by not very well edited article here. In fact, he brought me here. Enjoy.
     
  21. BIGFOOT Registered Senior Member

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    The first is a pretty good short summary the so-called 'Hard Problem' argument against physicalism in the philosophy of mind. Despite the subject line's promise, it doesn't address what the relevance supposedly is between the 'Hard Problem' and 'Intelligent Design'. The second presents a very 'holistic' layman's interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and and then tries to relate QM to the problems of consciousness, without a whole lot of details, specifics or success. The third essay seems to be a summary of apologist Stephen Meyer's questionable 'Signature in a Cell' assertion that information can only come from intelligence, so that the information encoded in DNA must have been put there by the Creator.[/QUOTE]

    All three essays are taken from one Chapter of a manuscript am developing. Its still 'Work in Progress" But I had an urge to send some provocative parts to the owner of the blog "500 Questions About God" Am not claiming to be a scientist or a specialist in any field of science. But I just wondered in this field driven by my curiosity about Religion and Science. My investigation had led me to conclude that Consciousness is Primary. Everything else is secondary.
     
  22. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    But you seem quite satisfied with your illusions.
     
  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. As if it has the power & maybe knowledge but not wisdom, logic, compassion & intelligence.
     

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