The illusion of free will

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by barcelonic, Feb 12, 2014.

  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    13,642
    Uh no..calculating pi in any sense, either by calculating the previous numbers or using an algorithm, is not predicting it. It's determining it. Predicting would be finding the pattern and inferring the digits from there. As in knowing in advance of calculating it out. And as I show there is no such known pattern. The sequence of digits is totally random and unpredictable.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    so, just to confirm, you agree that random mutation is necessary for successfull evolution and maintenance of infinite diversity?

    And what does the word "creativity" mean to you?
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not interested in something you raise but can't be bothered to define.
    Otherwise I could happily say that I don't believe nothingness is a possibility. And as such deserves no further consideration.
    But this wouldn't suffice for you.
    So if you want to discuss it, define it.
    Yes, and already responded to in post #252.
    So do you have issue with the premises? You can show them to be false?
    Or are you now merely criticising me for not requiring you to accept the premises, and to leave it to you to decide whether you do or not?
    I would add that if one does disagree with them, one should have the decency to explain why so that the premise can be defended.
    Again, that is the nature of discussions.
     
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  7. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    What you describe is certainly one method of prediction. But your continued focus on that as the only method is your mistake.
    Pi in and of itself is not a system, and is not either predictable or unpredictable. It is what it is.
    Predictability is related to a system, and what you describe is just one system: finding a pattern and using that to establish the next digit.
    It is not the only system.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    Uhm ... what exactly is your premise to claim that freewill is illusionary?
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    so your interest i s only in debating the issue and not the issue itself?
    Do you have any interest in the subject of freewill at all?
    If so then you can work out the relevance of zero for yourself.
     
  10. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    9,124
    I'm not sure it's necessary, but I think it can contribute significantly to it, yes.
    The conscious effort of combining of things in unusual ways and arrive at something novel.
     
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    9,124
    Sure, and ignore the next few sentences I wrote.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    gladly!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  13. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    9,124
    That cause and effect holds with the effects being governed either by determinism or probabilistic determinism. If one holds uncaused events to arise (rather than being due to hidden variables) then these are random.
    These are documented in various wordings throughout the thread.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    @Sarkus
    What questions do you have about your own belief's in the nature of freewill? [illusion or not]
     
  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    9,124
    I haven't missed this. I simply ignored that issue due to the impossibility of determined indeterminism. The two are mutually exclusive as philosophical notions.
    What you mean is determined underdeterminism, which results in an unpredictable system if you try to guess the next digit from what has gone before.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    So how does "nothing" figure in this premise? [aka a blank piece of paper or an empty form field in a discussion forum or a future yet to arrive or a past that no longer exists]
    or the white space between the virtual letters on this virtual page
     
  17. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,124
    Primarily whether it is a separate state of affairs to self-awareness or not, or whether the two are effectively the same thing (e.g. can't have one without the other).
    Other than that it is just regarding the soundness of the justification behind it.
     
  18. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,124
    It figures the same place as rubber ducks, the price of eggs, and my receding hairline. Unless you can show how it is relevant, where should it figure?
     
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    Maybe your thoughts would benefit by including the notion that self determination relies on unconditional inspiration and not obligatory cause and effect?

    How does Inspiration differ from deterministic causation/effects?

    Can the inspiration of a sun set be considered as a determining cause?
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    ha .. at least you have ....hair! yet my having next to no hair causes what? [ I have a pretty good idea what it inspires ]
     
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    23,164
    @Sarkus,
    Have you considered that the reality or not of free will MAY only be found possibly, with the use of deductive reasoning and not inductive reasoning. Meaning that like zero it can only be founded by default of everything else being excluded?
    ie:

    We have 2 red hats, we have also 2 blue hats.
    Question: How many yellow hats do we have?
     
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    13,642
    If the sequencing of pi digits weren't a system, then it wouldn't relate to chaotic behavior. In fact, recent research indicates that it does:

    "Bailey says: "At the very least we have shown that the digits of pi appear to be random: because they are described by chaos theory."

    Practical spin-offs of this seemingly arcane research include random number generators and cryptography."--

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2146295.stm
     
  23. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    15,058
    Yes, this is a vital difference.

    Many people (esp. those who are skeptical about free will) tend to think of free will as the provision of choices available to choose from. To such people, the ability to choose from whatever options are available (and note that whenever there is a sense that a choice could take place, there are at least two options to choose from) does not seem like free will.


    It comes down to how we define "free will" to begin with ...
     

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