The Language of Physics.

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Write4U, Aug 14, 2020.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    The Nature of Mathematics
    (These paragraphs are reprinted with permission from Everybody Counts: A Report to the Nation on the Future of Mathematics Education. ©1989 by the National Academy of Sciences. Courtesy of the National Academy Press, Washington, D.C.)
    https://services.math.duke.edu/undergraduate/Handbook96_97/node5.html

    "The Universe does not have "some" mathematical properties, it has "only" mathematical properties" (Tegmark)
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,213
    A lengthy description of mathematics ✓

    Human mathematics ✓

    Before we invented mathematics there was stuff. Stuff did not employ math. It just existed

    Natural mathematics? No such animal

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Just stuff? You cannot see the expressed mathematical orders in these examples ?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    fractals in nature. snail shell // milky way // leaf veins // motor neuron
    “Philosophy is … written in the language of mathematics, and its characters are triangles, circles, and other geometric figures … without these, one is wandering about in a dark labyrinth.” —Galileo Galilei

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Forever zooming in.
    “I never had the feeling that my imagination was rich enough to invent all those extraordinary things … They were there, even though nobody had seen them before. It’s marvelous … the goal of science is starting with a mess, and explaining it with a simple formula, a kind of dream of science.” —Benoît Mandelbrot
    http://incubator.rockefeller.edu/fractaled-atlas/


     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,213
    Yep, pretty photos of stuff, but ultimately just stuff

    Of course humans can wax lyrical about stuff, and stir the loins and emotions of others, can even observe, prod, poke, even shrink wrap mathematics around it

    Some even worship stuff

    Ultimately stuff remains stuff. We vanish from the Universe, stuff remains. We can manipulate stuff and change it into other forms of stuff, no matter, stuff is stuff

    Do you have trouble with stuff being stuff?

    I admit calling everything stuff when another person wants a particular type of stuff is not helpful but who said stuff needed to be helpful

    This lump of stuff is going to get some light brown stuff in a container of stuff to drink

    Translate - coffee moment

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    If stuff did not have a value it would not exist as stuff. It would be meta-stuff.....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    No, as long as the stuff has a relational values that makes interaction with other stuff in a specific way possible...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,213
    Noooooo it has physics to make interactions

    If human stuff feel the need to use stuff to inscribe squiggles on other stuff noting the interactions this lumb of stuff says no problem

    Want to call squigged stuff on other stuff mathematics? Sure go ahead

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    I disagree. Stuff has interactive values, not interactive physics. That is a meaningless term.

    IMO physics describes "existense of evolutionary continuance". Mathematics describe the values and functions by which it "self-organizes it's continued existence". Logic demands a value system by which reality may be relationally measured.
    I believe that mathematics is the informational language of physics and physical existence.
    I guess, that makes me an Idealist....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  11. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,213
    Do you consider math to be discovered or invented?

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    Both,

    "Natura Artis Magistra" = Nature is the teacher of arts (sciences).

    By most accounts, generic natural (logical) mathematics are discovered.
    (a + b = c) = universal logical constant.

    The Fibonacci Sequence is a universal logical constant. (a + b = c + b = d + c = e + d = f + ......)

    By all accounts, symbolic human maths are invented.
    (one plus two = three) = (1 + 2 = 3) = (I + II = III) = arbitrary human symbolic mathematical representations of universal logical constants.

    Patterns in nature
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_in_nature

    Examples of patterns in nature

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Examples of patterns in nature, including the golden spiral, the golden ratio and fractal self-similar structures. From left to right, (a) a nautilus shell, a galaxy, a sunflower, a desert plant; (b) a storm formation, a fern bud, an ocean wave, a finger print; (c) fractal properties in a branched tree, a leaf, river bed formation, a cast of human lungs.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure...l-the-golden-ratio-and-fractal_fig2_330531039


    Abstraction in Mathematics Learning
    Synonyms : Abstract representation; Mental abstraction; Metaknowledge

    Definitions
    https://link.springer.com/referenceworkentry/10.1007/978-1-4419-1428-6_516
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2020
  13. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,213
    Personally I go with only INVENTED

    While I agree nice patterns were discovered the math to describe was invented

    This agrees with your both point of view

    https://www-sciencefocus-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.sciencefocus.com/science/was-maths-invented-or-discovered/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA=#aoh=15987355054157&csi=1&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.sciencefocus.com/science/was-maths-invented-or-discovered/

    However I would disagree on the basis mentioned above. We discover nice patterns but nice patterns, in and of themselves, are not math. They BECOME mathematical AFTER we invent math to describe them

    Math is a abstract human construct and while the pretty patterns were laying around to be discovered, the pretty patterns are / were the result of physics THEN math was invented to describe

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    I disagree.
    The patterns in and of themselves are of a mathematical nature. It is the regularity of occurrence (a mathematical probability or Implicate) that determines the type of mathematical pattern and the mathematical equations that underlie their self-formation.

    Mathematical patterns have existed in nature since the chaotic beginning of the universe. Hence the Chaos Theory! The way reality expresses itself is by way of patterns which are implicated in their relational values and interactive functions.

    Man recognized thesepatterns and was able to invent the symbolic language which (hopefully) accurately describes the represented fundamental natural "values" and "functions".

    There can be no continued existence without possessing mathematical qualities. The Higgs boson cannot exist in our dimension, but the application of practical dynamic values, we teased it from the Higgs field and could observe it's traces in our dimension when we looked with the Cern collider, before they completely decay into even simpler values which are no longer measurable as physical stuff.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Event display of a candidate Higgs-boson decay to a photon and a Z boson, where the Z boson decays to two muons (shown in red). Green rectangles correspond to energy deposits in cells of the electromagnetic calorimeter, while yellow rectangles correspond to energy deposits in cells of the hadron calorimeter. (Image: ATLAS Collaboration/CERN)
    https://atlas.cern/updates/physics-briefing/higgs-photon-z-boson#

    While this may appear to be phyical when illustrated, it cannot claim that physical qualities represent a guiding equation, but rather the mathematical values they represent. At Planck scale reality appears to be illogical with all kinds of unpredictable variables, i.e. Chaos !
    But according to chaos theory, mathematical values and patterns self-form from chaos, resulting in measurable orders of reality.

    It's ALL mathematical, physics included....

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    Mathematics are the "common denominator" of every extant thing
    (mathematical pattern), in the universe, whether we have discovered it or not.

    All mathematics are discovered by the specific observable patterns physics expresses itself.
    We have not yet been able to observe and "symbolize" them all. But we are getting both farther out and deeper into the mystery of the dynamical causal essence of spacetime fabric.

    Is it the chaotic language of undefined physics? Irreducible complexity?
    Or is the orderly language of observable mathematical patterns? Quasi-intelligent Hierarchy of mathematical Orders?

    p.s. IMO. Logic is a form of Quasi-Intelligent chronology. a mathematical Guiding Equation.

    And it resolves all conflicting metaphysical interpretations of consciousness and intelligent design. It's Mathematical.......

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,845
    The order expressed in those examples was not mathematical, but chemical and physical and evolutionary and so forth.
    In several of those examples we - the human theorists and creators of mathematics - have not yet succeeded in inventing the math we need to fully describe the order we observe. We cannot observe such a mathematical order, no matter how detailed and complete our observation, because it isn't there yet: it will be our invention, later on, if we are clever enough.
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    I disagree, if it is observable, it is no longer hidden and will most assuredly answer to one or several of our related sciences. The point is that we cannot yet observe everything, but that our "understanding" of the fundamental rules (constants) of relational mathematical values and functions, allows us to independently arrive at a theoretical mathematical answer before the question is even posed.

    Mathematics is the language of the Implicate Order, the single common denominator that holds it all together and provides the dynamic frame of reference for self-expression.

    p.s. "common denominator" is a mathematical expression...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,502
    Does it have cuss words? Can it express love or fear or hope? Can it form the basis of a legal document?
    Maybe language is not the right word.
    That is an extrodinary claim can you offer evidence in support? And the reference to self expression do you mean painting by numbers?
    Alex
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    In science I believe it's called the "mechanics", not the emotional outbursts of an impressionable person. That's religion.
    Yep, the Higgs experiment.
    No, I mean the spontaneous self-organization of regular patterns emerging from a prior chaotic disordered state, by way of a guiding equation resting on the relational interactive behaviors of specific inherent values processed in a logical way by an applicable mathematical function.

    When all the values of an interaction are present, a mathematical implication of the result is formed before it is actually expressed as a physical phenomenon. The Implicate order, it is a property of a deterministic universe.

    An equation is a self-referential expression of a mathematical relationship or comparison. Check out Tupper's Theory.

    https://plus.maths.org/content/formula-plots-almost-everything
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  19. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,580
    What is the natural language for what we call a tree in English. If man wasn't here the tree would still be here. What is the natural language for describing a "tree"? It wouldn't be a fractal. A fractal is an approximation.
     
  20. Neddy Bate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,115
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,852
    How would physics describe a tree? A bunch of leaves on branches sprouting from the side of the tree trunk?

    All mathematical expressions in nature are approximations of a true mathematical pattern. In a dynamical enviroment all things are in constant change. The key is whether the change is purely random or if change still happens in accordandance with mathematical guiding equations.

    In the case of a tree it is the entire object that fractal in nature, i.e. self-similar in its dynamic growth patterns. These are some idealized mathematical common recursive self-referential patterns of a trees.

    Recursive Function

    A recursive function is an alternative to using iteration. A function is a recursive function if:

    It includes a call to itself,
    It has a stopping condition to stop the recursion.


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    https://www.101computing.net/recursive-tree-challenge/

    Chapter 8. Fractals
    “Pathological monsters! cried the terrified mathematician
    Every one of them a splinter in my eye
    I hate the Peano Space and the Koch Curve
    I fear the Cantor Ternary Set
    The Sierpinski Gasket makes me wanna cry
    And a million miles away a butterfly flapped its wings
    On a cold November day a man named Benoit Mandelbrot was born”

    — Jonathan Coulton, lyrics from “Mandelbrot Set”

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Figure 8.1

    https://natureofcode.com/book/chapter-8-fractals/

    No one expects that the Platonic solids are perfectly expressed as physical objects in nature. It's impossible.
    Environmental pressures (external values) always interfere with undisturbed growth.

    Mathematical perfection in nature is an abstraction, in reality always an approximation, but that's not the point. It is the growth function that remains a mathematical constant, not the physical environment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  22. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 71 years old Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,213
    Your description is in English not Physics

    Physics is a branch of science, not a language

    In English it could be described as

    A biological system which uses photosynthesis to grow its components

    Physics (of both the growth of the future tree and the environment) dictates the growth pathways available and which pathways maximises photosynthesis

    I could, but I won't, go into exquisite detail of the resistance of the soil, the maximum speed a tree root could grow in said soil, the strength and breaking point (when the force applied exceeds the resistance of the material the root is composed of) of the root

    Giving a physics description of growth is not required to understand a physical item (stuff) follows physics reality laws

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,580
    Two identical oak trees will grow differently due to the physical environment.

    Physics is the way humans describe a tree. You like to talk about a "natural" language apart from humans.
     
    exchemist likes this.

Share This Page