The limits of computing.

Discussion in 'Intelligence & Machines' started by Counter, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,532
    I wear glasses which can see small details like that

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  3. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    The lower 3 zeros do not exist

    I don't mean in the sense they are zero

    You cannot have a naked +0 or -0

    They must be mated with another number for the operator

    (the + or the -)

    to come into effect

    Hence the first = sign is incorrect

    negating the second =

    causing the 3rd 0 to be non existent also

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  5. Counter Registered Senior Member

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    458
    n+0=n
    n-0=n
    n*0=n

    therefore n/0=n

    Zero is ignored because there is NOTHING THERE...it does not exist.

    -0|0|+0

    In 1+0 and 1-0 the signs are both operators AND signs...
     
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  7. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    5,332
    But I can have a naked +1 or -1?

    +1 and -1 are integers. 0 is an integer.

    Are you saying I can write: 1 - 1 = 0, but I can't write 1 + (-1) = 0?
     
  8. Michael 345 Valued Senior Member

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    3,532
    Husband comes home and calls out to wife

    Hunny I bought a plus one

    Wife calls out

    A plus one what?
    --
    Husband comes home and calls out to wife

    Hunny I bought a plus zero

    She takes him to the doctor
    ---
    Later that evening he says

    Hunny I returned it to the shop we are now minus one

    Minus one what?
    ---
    Hunny I returned zero to the shop we are now minus zero

    She took him back to the doctor
    ---
    Hunny I bought a plus one but took the plus one back

    That's nice dear
    ---
    Hunny I bought a plus zero but took the plus zero back

    She took him to the hospital and left him there overnight
    ---
    Moral

    Don't treat nothing as if it has existence

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  9. Counter Registered Senior Member

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    458
    Yes zero does not exist. And it is blasphemy to attempt to name or quantify such a thing!
     
  10. RADII Registered Member

    Messages:
    92
    Um, what? Division by zero generally causes an exception fault: for example, fixed-point [0x09] or floating point divide [0x0f] exceptions. This is generally a hardware fault, in my experience. What am I missing here?
     
  11. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    2,970
    That certainly shouldn't happen. Software should never let hardware just blow up.
     
  12. RADII Registered Member

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    92
    The hardware doesn't 'blow up,' the hardware detects the error. With a few exceptions, hardware faults are those detected by hardware during the execution of software instructions. In the example, above, the ALU [Arithmetic Logic Unit] detects the fault in the execution of the instruction, puts the error code in a register (along with other pointers, depending on the actual hardware), raises the error by causing an interrupt & exits.
     
  13. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    30,532
    Um... what?!

    n*0 = 0.

    No. Because imagine that we multiply both sides of that equation by zero. We then get:
    \(\frac{n}{0}\times 0 = n \times 0\)
    \(n = 0\)
    which is clearly not true for all n.

    Of course, I made an assumption there, that 0/0 = 1, and that's not really valid either. If, instead, we had 0/0 = 17, then we'd conclude that all numbers are 17 from the above argument, which is, again, clearly bunk.

    Zero is a number. It is only ignored if you ignore it.

    This is meaningless rubbish.

    Context is important when you're doing mathematics. So is knowing some mathematics.
     
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,970
    As I said, "Computers can divide by zero. They can return either infinity or just "not a number". If you tell the hardware to divide by zero, it will do it. It's just electronic circuitry. When you put voltages in here, something has to come out there. The actual electronic result of division by zero could vary from processor to processor. Any error that is raised has to be arbitrarily added, doesn't it? It could just as well raise an error if you tried to multiply by six.
     
  15. RADII Registered Member

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    92
    You have used hardware I've never encountered.
     
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,970
    "Zero" is just a concept that WE have superimposed on some electronic condition. Put zero in and SOMETHING - some electronic condition - has to come out. We can superimpose the concept of "error" on that condition if we choose, or not.

    What hardware have you used that doesn't work that way?
     
  17. RADII Registered Member

    Messages:
    92
    Why are you desperately arguing some esoteric, philosophical position? Zero IS NOT some concept or any other crap we have imposed on some electronic condition. It is a specific gate in a gate-array that causes the result to fall through when 'true' to a hardware-detected error condition. Stop trying to make it some mystical human crap.
     
  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,970
    Huh? I'm talking about strictly physical phenomena.
    And that "hardware-detected error" is what some engineer decided was an "error".

    Again: You put zero in at one end of the black box and something comes out the other end. That something can be an error condition or not, depending on what the box's engineer decides. The "error-condition" is arbitrarily imposed on the electronic condition.
     

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