The morality behind veganism

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by wegs, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    There is greater survival value in being an omnivore than a vegan. Do vegans imagine cattle and other domesticated livestock chose to be vegan for any reason other than because their physiologies were poorly adapted to being carnivores or omnivores?

    Even some plants eat meat. They'd probably be even more aggressive about it if they were better adapted for it. Their energy budgets preclude movements quick enough to capture and ingest a more varied diet. Even if they did, animals would quickly adapt to avoid man eating kudzu.
     
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  3. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    That seems a rather peculiar way of looking at it. I'm not sure that cattle are vegan because their physiology was poorly adapted to other diets but rather because the diet and physiology they had simply enabled them to survive. There was no reason for them to evolve or adapt further.
    As above, you seem to be looking at an evolutionary end-point the plant has no need to achieve and saying that because they haven't achieved it they are somehow poorly adapted.
    That they have survived is surely evidence that they have adapted nd esolved sufficiently to fit the niche of life that they inhabit?
     
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  5. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    If you're not bound by morals then there should be no problem eating anything, including meat. The thing is, almost all people don't view all life as equal. And almost everyone of those people are bound by morals, otherwise they would see nothing wrong with eating other humans just as easily as eating animals.
     
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  7. wellwisher

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    In term of eating animals for meat, I tend to copy nature. In nature there are predators and prey. Humans, like other predator animals, eat prey animals like cows, sheep and rabbits, but they do not typically eat other predator animals, like lions, wolves, dogs, cats and humans. It is not clear if vegetarians human are considered prey, since they mimic the eating behavior of the prey animals; veggie diet.
     
  8. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    It's hard to be entirely simplistic with this topic because our food sources have been tainted by greed, and with that in mind, the consumer is losing in terms to health benefits when consuming products that are derived by inhumane and factory farming practices. So, a vegan's decision to never eat meat, dairy or any byproducts of animals, might come from a number of places - maybe moral, they simply don't want to hurt animals even for food, and that in the hurting of animals, the consumer is getting hurt. I believe in the circle of life and that there is always a price to pay if we behave in ways that diminish our humanity.
     
  9. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    After about 1937, Adolf Hitler was evidently a vegetarian, ate only the freshest fruits and vegetables (corroborated by the person who checked his food for poisoning), and also denounced all forms of animal cruelty.

    So much for the idea of adopted diet being a integral component of human morality. Perhaps world simply witnessed the ill effects some sort of B vitamin deficiency? We'll never know for certain.
     
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  10. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    I also denounce all forms of animal cruelty... but like Hitler i also fall short... how about you.???
     
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  11. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    I try to be kind to animals of course, but I understand it is not always possible to extend my kindness or good intentions to the carcasses of the domesticated animals I consume, nor to dangerous animals some people insist on keeping as pets in and around neighbors whose children may be put at risk by them. Sometimes, the children put themselves at risk. I wouldn't have been so quick to kill Harambe. Whatever happened to tranquilizer darts? You would think zoos would have ample non-lethal strategies for maintaining their exhibits in emergency situations.

    I try to be kind to plants as well, but although they are aesthetically pleasing enough, I do not extend such courtesy to dandelions growing in my yard, much less the plants I must consume in order not to starve to death. Dandelions or tufts of crabgrass or kudzu have as little regard for the grass in my yard they kill in order to thrive either. Ornamental or food, where do you draw the line?

    It is more important to be kind to people, but certain people, like the ones who oversell guns and ammo to folks who don't need them, making them a threat to their neighbors or society, or pushers of narcotics to a similar demographic, frankly remind me of dandelions. I try not to be obsessive about it, and to limit my level of outrage based on how much hypocrisy I know exists even in the most seemingly innocent choices.

    The mistake I think even many people who go vegan make is not considering what else they might be doing that creates more misery in this world, like buying expensive clothing produced overseas in sweat shops, or buying other consumer goods that are not fair trade.

    Does that about cover it?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  12. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah whats done to food animals is obscene... but not likely to change very soon sinse its also very easy to turn a blind eye to the obsenities that hapen to human animals.!!!

    Other than the benifits to human/animal life i dont give a second thout about plants... an i dont thank anybody deserves punishment... an i thank you have about covered it when you lump certain people / an dandelions together.!!!
     
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  13. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Eye of the beholder. Obscenity to some is efficiency to another.

    How about something as immoral as war? I'll consider veganism as a serious attempt to be a more moral person on the day we collectively decide we've fought our last war in the name of freedom or justice or morality. There is nothing moral about war. Bullies killing other bullies is about as moral as the way T-Rex made a living, eating a lot of gentle vegan dinosaurs. When they were gone, lions and tigers simply took their place. Nature and extinction doesn't really play any favorites in terms of diets or sin or hypocrisy. If you make war more efficient at killing ourselves off (which Hitler put into practice), I doubt being a vegetarian or a vegan will compensate for it in any manner other than providing a psychologically thin veneer of pretend morality.

    The bloodiest war ever fought was over the institution of slavery. Which side was more moral for fighting it? In 2016, it's getting harder and harder even to guess which side actually won. Which side just won a hotly contested national election?

    Was the totalitarian extremes of the Cold War really vanquished from the former Soviet Union in the 1980s? Couldn't guess that by the way someone like Putin behaves. These are good examples of the kind of morality something like war actually accomplishes.

    Veganism is even more futile than that in the grand scheme of things. In a war that is bad enough, the vegans who will not harm so much as an insect so they can eat will simply be the first casualties to starve to death.
     
  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Carnivorous plants are extremely well adapted to their environments. The evidence is that they are still around, while the non-carnivorous plants in those niches have become extinct.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's an odd thing to say, akin to "I'll stop murdering people on the day we collectively decide we've fought our last war in the name of freedom or justice or morality; otherwise, not murdering people is just a hypocritical attempt to create a thin veneer of pretend morality."

    War is slowed down/stopped by people opposing it. It helped end the Vietnam War, for example; imagine how much longer the war would have gone on if every protester had said "eh, I'll protest immoral wars only when we collectively decide to not go to war any more." Fortunately they did not wait for that, and the war was ended sooner than it would have been otherwise. Did it bring an instant end to all war? Of course not. But even ending a war early is a vast improvement over the alternative.

    Likewise, the consumption of meat (bad in a lot of ways) is slowed down/stopped by people choosing to not eat it. Will it save the Earth tomorrow? Of course not. But it's better than the alternative, which is to not try at all.
    Do you find war protests futile?
     
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  16. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Never actually joined an anti-war protest, no. Did it really make a difference in Vietnam, or elsewhere? Didn't prevent us from invading Iraq because the Saudis wanted us to, did it?

    Bullies will still make you sorry you didn't, if you don't support their war.
     
  17. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    danshawen
    the problem there wasn't the lack of Tranq's or darts, but the abject failure of training or understanding on the part of the staff and the fear response which didn't allow for logical or coherent thought

    or the fact that they're usually completely ignorant of how things are made , etc

    cluelusshusbund
    what is done to food animals that is obscene is also limited to certain farms or people, not to all food animals... as danshawen notes here:
    there are farms that are "obscene", so to speak. but these are fewer than people think. especially with the higher ability of others to share media and information publicly. more importantly, the only reason it is even more prevalent in certain media today is due to:
    1- shock value
    2- the population increases (which demand more farming and supply)

    billvon
    of course, considering the incredibly high emissions of methane and other ecological damage done by domesticated stock, i find it far more satisfying to attempt to end their emissions or ecological damage by eating them than ignoring them
     
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  18. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    Well said. About the kindest and most moral thing a person can do for the world is to have fewer or even no children. It's not for everyone, but this much I have done, so my conscience is clear in that moral regard. Not as flashy as winning a Darwin Award, but it works. You don't need to be gay to do it, but I suppose that would be one solution. Nature isn't that picky about it, just wants the population reduced, see? Solves lots of problems at once.

    If you are vegan but have a large family, what kind of morality is that really? Nature finds ways to naturally limit the number of potential omnivores / predators if you will not. Doesn't want all of the plant life in your bellies either. Veganism or anti-vaccination is not even close to moral superiority. Clear enough?
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  19. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That would work great - if there weren't tens of thousands of people dedicated to making new stock whenever you eat one.
     
  20. Truck Captain Stumpy Registered Senior Member

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    thanks
    yes and no - this is entirely dependent upon so many things, from the culture to the ability to survive...

    yes, there is a huge overpopulation in many areas, but even where i specifically live (CONUS, mind you) there is plenty of land, ability and resources to support a larger family, considering my culture as well as a small limited population. my nearest neighbor is more than a mile away (1.2miles, to be exact)


    even though i am the worst about getting "subtle" anything, i didn't think i really had to point out that the specific comment was offered in comic relief

    next time i'll attach the following notation: [satirical hyperbole]

    LOL

    PS
    LATE EDIT
    i think i've mentioned earlier in this thread (maybe not - too lazy to look) - most of my meat is fresh and wild, just for the record, with the exception of certain meats we raise ourselves for personal consumption.

    PPS
    yup - my first post in this thread ...

    BTW, yall should look at the meme that i posted in my first post (if nothing else, anyway)
    that pic says a lot about why vegans are not informed about their products
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  21. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

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    Why are we discussing the morality of war?
     

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