The Mueller investigation.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Quantum Quack, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    It's so censored, the president calls it treasonous and wants to lock up reporters. Like his idol Putin.
    The Russian government, you mean. I'm sure it's important to those who care about the truth.
     
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  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    16,580
    Of course. Which is why Schmelzer opposes it. How can you maintain a good Trump/Russia supporting narrative in the face of the truth?
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    21,056
    Schmelzer,
    You only have to look at the way Russia deals with protests and activists and compare that with the West, to know that freedom is very lacking in Russia. Also the degree in which the Putin and the Russian Government consistently lies to it's own people telling them that what they see with their own eyes off the internet and even in movies and imported TV is all a lies and fake freedom.

    as in China:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    any freedom is fake...
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    23,122
    Ah, when pro Putin propaganda gets to the point of functional stupidity...

    Please stop.

    Because you must realise, somewhere deep inside, that you are humiliating yourself by openly lying.

    How much are they paying you? Do you do this across multiple platforms? Or are we just blessed?

    Why don't you ask Ivan Golunov and the Russians who protested the Russian authorities ridiculous attempts to silence him by arresting him on trumped up charges, whether they value freedom of the press and what they truly think about Russian propaganda.

    Hmmmm..

    What with draconian laws and website blocking, the pressure on independent media has grown steadily since the big anti-government protests in 2011 and 2012. Leading independent news outlets have either been brought under control or throttled out of existence. As TV channels continue to inundate viewers with propaganda, the climate has become very oppressive for those who question the new patriotic and neo-conservative discourse, or just try to maintain quality journalism. More journalists are now in prison than at any time since the fall of the Soviet Union and more and more bloggers are being jailed.

    "Freedom!"

    You remind me of someone. It had been bugging me for some time. The propaganda that you spout, your conduct, the ridiculous nature of your lies in the face of glaring reality...

    And then it hit me.

    Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf..
     
  8. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Not censored but controlled by a small group. This group is against Trump.
    Those who care about the truth anyway don't trust TV or mass media. They prefer the internet.
    Bells cries about me "openly lying" without providing any proof,
    Why do you think I have to ask them? Those who protested that case of fabrication of false evidence protested against that and were supported by many. Police should not fabricate evidence, and this is important for every reasonable person, even for those who don't care about freedom of the press.

    Just to clarify: General statements about "Russia" are, obviously, not statements about all Russians without exceptions. They are about what either the majority or the elites or those in power think. In this case, the population (beyond the 3% or so following Western propaganda), as well as the elites, don't care. Those in power care to some degree, else there would not be any media in Russia which openly distribute Western propaganda in pure form.
    The source of this? Without a specific source, what is the point of repeating standard propaganda? The fact remains that I can see in Russia media which openly distribute Western propaganda, and that the position of Western propaganda is correctly described by the mainstream media too. Quite different from Western media, which present only the Western propaganda.

    One case of a blogger imprisoned I have already mentioned: A guy who has proposed to catch the children of the policemen and then to send them snuff videos of what has been done with them.

    By the way, in the West, you can be jailed for social media posts as well, see https://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/jun/13/jail-someone-for-being-offensive-twitter-facebook

    And, learn to read: More freedom of the press than in the West does not mean there is freedom of the press. There is none, nowhere. But given the actual situation in the West, one needs almost nothing to gain more freedom of the press.

    Russia handles such protests in a much more civilized way. Say, in comparison with France. Compare what happened to many Gilets jaunes (yellow vests) in France, and try to find something comparable in Russia. Then I know that freedom is much more lacking in France.
    Where have you read that propaganda fantasy? You cannot read any Russian texts, so you obviously depend on Western propaganda sources for this.

    If Russian media claim something is a lie, they present evidence for this. Else, nobody would care about such claims. Such Western lies presented to Russian readers are, of course, most efficient if the lies are about Russia. So that the readers also
    have their own knowledge about Russia to evaluate if these Western propaganda claims are really false. Quite different from you.
     
  9. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Anyone with half a brain is against Trump.
    Trust but verify. They have a reputation to uphold. The internet tends to be a cesspit of lies and crackpot conspiracy theories. But just believe your own eyes. The president commits crimes on live TV.
     
  10. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    By your standards, Bells would never even be able to prove that you're a human being, let alone a liar.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    No, it isn't.
    It made a lot of money off Trump, in 2016 and since, and it will continue to do so until stopped.

    You can see it now, for example, hyping Joe Biden and his son as an issue - Trump's game plan.
    So do those who care about selling lies to the gullible - your sources, for example. They find the internet very useful.
    You are among those who follow Western propaganda - it is the content of the majority of your posting here.
    You tell us.
    You are the one posting it here - and you have never provided your sources, or anything resembling evidence for any of your claims, in matters of US politics.
     
  12. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    I see no reason to be against Trump. He destroys US soft power successfully and has up to now not started a new war, which is quite optimal for a US president.
    The western press has started in my eyes with some reputation 1989, in comparison with the former communist propaganda. But that was lost already during the 90s. Today it has a negative reputation - means, a completely unknown source has a higher one.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    29,618
    Any mob bosses can say the same. They belong in jail anyway.
    Meanwhile: you are an enemy of the US.
    Enemies of the US see nothing wrong with Trump's behavior, especially if - like you - they think he will not start wars or increase the scale of the wars W already started.
    Citizens of the US have a different perspective.
    Your sources are not completely unknown - and they are the worst of the Western press sources.
    Your sources are Western propaganda feeds. And you are quite correct in your evaluation of them - they have a negative reputation.
     
  14. Bells Staff Member

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    23,122
    I had provided links in previous discussions about your dishonesty and your propaganda. I mean, we are now at the stage where your lying verges on the comical. Russia has more freedom of the press?

    I didn't think one could make such shit up. But here we are.

    Sure, Russia has more freedom of the press. When compared to, say, North Korea.

    Sucks to be Russian then.

    Figure of speech.

    Russian propaganda school did not teach you about such things about the evil West?

    While missing the obvious in the story of Ivan Golunov.. I mean, it was widely reported on at the time... That the way for authorities to target journalists is to fabricate crimes, drug possession being the favourite. The snag they caught with Golunov is that they were so inept at planting the evidence, that they were caught and outed. While in custody, meanwhile, Golunov was severely beaten and tortured, denied access to his lawyers. Yay for those Russian freedoms.

    It was so bad that even journalists who work for state run media in Russia protested. They could not lie out of this one.

    Right.. Meanwhile in Russia..

    https://cpj.org/2019/10/russian-authorities-harass-journalists-reporting-o.php
    https://cpj.org/2019/10/russian-internet-regulator-blocks-independent-ferg.php
    https://cpj.org/2019/09/russian-police-raid-home-of-journalist-aleksandr-n.php
    https://cpj.org/blog/2019/08/cpj-joins-call-for-russian-authorities-to-end-hara.php


    That's just a few over the last few months.

    Please, keep harping on about how free the press is in Russia and how great the system is.

    Just more fodder for the propaganda, eh?

    It was linked.

    Are you unable to click on links now?

    There was a source. It was linked. Why are you asking for sources when one was provided?

    Your pro Russian propaganda is so severe, that you probably look at Coca Cola and think the West is trying to corrupt mother Russia.

    You'll excuse me if I don't take your views of what constitutes Western propaganda when you have outed yourself as the Baghdad Bob of Russia's propaganda arm..

    Haven't seen it mentioned. Then again, I tend to get glazed eyes when I read half the propaganda you write. Simply put, I don't believe you.

    For example, you claim "A guy who has proposed to catch the children of the policemen and then to send them snuff videos of what has been done with them"..

    It wasn't a proposal. It was a stupid tweet in response to facial recognition software being used during protests.. Given police were arresting protest organisers or people they believed were involved with the protest, by dragging them from their homes and in at least one instant, leaving children alone in the house, it was a comment made in poor taste. But hey, it's interesting that you bought the pro Kremlin line..

    Yep. And it is equally stupid.

    Nice back pedaling.

    As I noted above. Sure, there is freedom of the press in Russia, when compared to somewhere like North Korea.

    Civilised?

    I guess if one is a savage, one might consider how Russia handles protests "civilised".
     
  15. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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    755
    So like impeachment, you've made a pretense of criminality only to backpedal to "gravity".

    IOW, you just don't like the fact that they are, indeed, correct...and are backpedaling to what you personally deem is "appropriate".

    "Known" is not evidence, as it's become painfully obvious that people will claim knowledge based solely on their own biases. And if things like Cohen claiming Trump dangled pardons were even just "known" to a degree that impeachment were not a potential political suicide, no one would be making noise about Ukraine.

    At the time of your post, no subpoenas had been issued, hence no need for any executive privilege. And there could be genuine executive privilege concerns involved. It's not unlimited, nor is it completely impotent.
    And? That only supports my point that impeachment is only political and doesn't require any strict criteria of evidence, much less of criminal wrongdoing.

    Since when were you talking about the release of the full, unredacted report and not the content of the report itself? Nothing was invoked in the creation of the report, and plenty could be sensitive and need redaction. Dems shouting obstruction of justice is the boy who cried wolf at this point. If they had anything, they should have long since acted on it, and the latest is no better than they've had.

    No evidence of extortion. Oh, you means these conspiracy theories, reported by Politico:
    Ukrainian efforts to sabotage Trump backfire
    Kiev officials are scrambling to make amends with the president-elect after quietly working to boost Clinton.


    Biden Inc.
    Over his decades in office, ‘Middle-Class Joe’s’ family fortunes have closely tracked his political career.


    Is saying factual things, like presidents having freedom of speech, are stupid suppose to distract from you offering nothing by way of evidence for your claims? Not working here, as that's more of an ad hominem admission to having nothing.

    Posturing about who has a clue is not actually making one yourself. Yawn.
     
  16. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    In this case simply because I have not recognized that behind the Hmmmm was a link.
    Even that propaganda article gives evidence that something has changed:
    Compare the numbers 211 from 1991-2006 and 0 2015-16 and you see that during the Putin time being a journalist became much safer.
    And don't forget that this list starts with the end of the USSR. That means, it includes all the victims of ten years Yeltsin time. Remember, the time when everything was fine with the freedom of the press in Russia. Except that a lot of journalists were murdered, but nobody cared in the West. Of course, in a world where the mafia rules in cooperation with oligarchs stealing whatever they can, and the police and courts are corrupt, it is risky for journalists to investigate all this.

    Therefore removing the oligarchs from political power, successfully reducing the power of the mafia, as well as the police and court corruption during the Putin time made the life for journalists much safer. The most prominent murders of Russian journalists during the last years happened in the Donbass civil war, and in Africa.
    Whatever there was additionally to planting evidence, it was a crime done by some policemen and is handled now as a crime done by these policemen. His own hypothesis was that what motivated that crime was his investigation into something criminal in the burial business. Sounds plausible.
    A polemical description that the Russian civil society works as it should in a democratic state.
    Learn to read. I have not said that it is free (it isn't), simply that it has more freedom than the Western one. And I will add that it is far from being great. The main objection against Russian journalists made in the blogs is, btw, not that they lie, but that they are incompetent.
    Fine, I have guessed correctly that you will start to defend even this guy.
    I have bought no line. IMHO, 5 years is far too much even for a twit suggesting to murder children. But I have to admit that I have no problem with this, IMHO the penalties are too high almost everywhere and for almost everything.
    Yes, this one is a savage, and therefore investigations against him have been started.
     
  17. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    He also claims that Russia has better infrastructure than the US, better roads and bridges. Who are we freaking kidding here? Most of Russia is connected by a single crappy highway. Oops, more Nazi hate speech from me because I didn't tell Schmelzer how awesome and superior he and his Russian comrades are, now they're going to launch grizzly bears at hypersonic speed to come kill me.
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    29,618
    Putin won. That settled a lot of the mob boss issues - criminal violence always dies down when one of the bosses wins.

    And even then: Not nearly as safe as they are in countries with better government, and a press more free.
     
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    And that you would have to double Russia's GDP to come close to the state of California.
     
  20. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    I judge the quality of government based on how the situation changes, not that much looking at absolute numbers. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia#Statistics the murder rate changed from a peak of 32.26/100 000 in 1994 down to 5.18 in 2018. Quite impressive, I think.

    The 5.18 of 2018 would look quite normal in the US according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_homicide_rate It remains large in comparison with Europe, but there are also large differences between murder rates in the European part and Siberia/Far East. There are a lot of natives in these regions. Given that they have not been genocided away in Russia, I would expect higher numbers in comparison with the US. They have quite similar problems, in particular, higher alcohol dependency and also higher homicide rates (see https://billingsgazette.com/news/st...cle_cd39d5e5-0bae-5f6d-9da5-994e3e8bdbd6.html for US). Then there is also the Caucasus, a region traditionally known for much higher murder rates, with surviving traditions of the blood feud. These are cultural things that will not change very fast, moreover, Putin does not interfere that much with the regions, in particular, does not do anything to change local cultures. So, I would not expect that European homicide rates will be reached in near future, independent of good or bad government, given these problems.

    That anti-Russian propagandists will defame even such success stories is simply as expected.
     
  21. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Is this a dictator makes the trains run time argument? Still a murderous thug.
     
  22. CptBork Robbing the Shalebridge Cradle Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah but when the trains run on time it makes Schmelzer and his friends look oh so powerful and cool, like they can do anything or at least a few things just as well as the country that beat them black and blue without firing a shot. I sure wish I was cool just like them, maybe I need to find an old Ukrainian grandma to beat up or something.
     
  23. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    4,628
    The claim is about the change. US infrastructure was quite good in the past but is deteriorating. Russian infrastructure is, instead, improving. There are large differences inside Russia, one thing are streets in Moscow and Petersburg, as well as federal communication lines. Another thing are local roads, especially in or between villages, where a lot depends on the ability of the local administration.
    No, talk about highways is irrelevant for classification as a Nazi.

    Not if you compute the GDP in PPP. http://www.worldeconomics.com/grossdomesticproduct/russia.gdp Given that Russia has artificially lowered the ruble to counter the low oil price in dollar as well as the sanctions (increasing artificially the costs of imports), to compare the GDP in dollar makes not much sense, except for propagandists. California taken alone is BTW the fifth-largest economy of the world (in dollar), greater than Britain. I have to admit that the idea to compare with a single state of the US instead of whole countries like Britain is a clever one from point of view of propaganda.

    No. You are still a stupid propagandist.
     

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