The politics of conspiracy

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by lotuseatsvipers, Jul 24, 2002.

  1. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    I have noticed a lot of people on this board enjoy and believe in many conspiracy theories (especially when applied to the US government).

    This thread is an attempt to open up communication about the possible logic and philosophy behind these.

    People(in the government and everywhere else) are people like you and me.

    People in general are not out to get everyone or fool everyone or trick everyone. I would almost say its safe to assume that the average population much enjoys helping others whenever possible as long as it is not too much of a sacrifice.

    There are many many people in governments, which would mean many people would have to keep their mouths shut when a conspiracy is actually going down. If you have any faith in humans it is hard to believe this happens very often, depending of course on the severity of hte conspiracy.

    Conspiracies where odd things, rather than bad things are believed, are a different breed. For example, Bush wants to nuke the world (bad), aliens have been landing on the planet for centuries(odd). The odd conspiracies could probably occur more frequently but would need and require a driving mechanism "What would someone have to gain by covering this up"...this is similar to the idea that there is a conspiracy among scientists to prove global warming (my question is what do scientists have to gain from a pretend global warming). The odd conspiracy differs because the 'bad' conspiracy would already have a motivation; that of greed on the part of the rulers or govt.

    Conspiracies, at face value, differ very little from religion. Like religion, it cannot be disproven, therefor it is safe to assume it is the truth.
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  3. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

    The thing with conspiracies is that you don't know they're going on until the media blows it's cover. For all we know, someone has tried to Nuke the Eiffel tower (why anyone would stop this is beyond me) last week. They mainly keep things under wraps as not to cause mass panic. But stuff like this probably happens everyday, its the competence (I thought I'd never say this) of the governments is solving this without resorting to telling the public.
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  5. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    No I think thats the problem with things that actually happened. Rarely is a conspiracy ever shown to be true, certainly ur casual message board and internet conspiracies have the lowest occurance of truth.

    And on this message board if you refuse to believe a conspiracy for a logical reason you are shut down as close minded, but you if you ignore religion for logical reasons you are praised as a wonderful athiest (a bit of a stretch but my point is all the same).

    In fact I am finding it hard to get people to talk about them in a general sense through logical evaluations, much like everyone here likes to treat religion.
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  7. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    I forsee this becoming a very ugly thread but here goes:

    That is to say (and correct me if I am wrong) people are the same the world over. We all have or share some of the same wants/needs which is sort of the thread of humanness which keeps us all bound together. I'll grant that.

    Not everyone is identical. That is, my wants and needs, while similar, are not the same as your wants and needs.

    You'll have to grant that since people are the same, in general, then CEO's, CFO's, and Politicians are, in general the same. Even more so, because it takes a certain sort of person to rise into any position of power in this country (The US, I daren't speak for any other country). It takes some know-how, connections, charm, breeding and the desire for power.

    Now, we are aware and have evidence that there have been several conspiracies originating from at least... 5 board rooms now that came about to bilk money from investors, in order to increase the value of stock and specifically, their own portfolios. One man was even killed to keep him silent about it (or should I say "commited suicide" with a pistol loaded with rat shot, fired at a range of ~2 feet).

    Those are conspiracies. They are doing something wrong/illegal, as a group, and are keeping it secret. So we know that it is possible for people in the US to conspire against it's citizens. Nothing makes politicians magically immune to this sort of thing. Money and power can be like drugs. Once you have had a little, you want more and more and more and sometimes you don't care how you get it.

    If conspiracies exist in the business sector, and the business sector is no different from the government sector, then it stands to reason that it is, at the very least, possible that a conspiracy exists at any level of the government.
  8. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    I dont see it getting ugly at all, it's just a thread to discuss conspiracies in general. I don't think anyone could feel OVERLY strongly about this. I certainly don't.

    You bring up valid points about recent events, I was thinking of other events when posting the thread (such as watergate).

    My return point is that these things were uncovered. I feel that in most cases when something or someone is so strongly lying to the public that the public finds out. Whatever you feel about the American press, there are plenty of independant (and respected) journalists out there who devote a lot of time to uncovering things like this. Not too mention the IRS who makes it rather hard to pull a really big fast one (the government doesn't really like being robbed, and the people like it even less....obviosly it can happen, but its tough).

    Maybe you believe that we have simply uncovered a small number of very regularly occuring things. This is something I am trying to open dialogue about.

  9. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

    First off, good topic Lotus.

    I hope you are being sarcastic here...Of course, since neither can be disproven, I'd say it is safe to assume they are NOT the truth.

    Yes, its not so black and white, but I have seen shades of this which has somewhat confused me.

    If you are a skeptic, I think you should be a skeptic universally. Why hold some beliefs to harsher standards than others?

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    It is my belief that conspiracy theories are largely pure fantasy and paranoia. Especially in the instances where odd things(not scientifically explainable) are occuring.

    Yes, it is possible. Much more possible than the 'odd' conspiracy theories cited above. Still, a group of greedy executives conspiring to screw a bunch of people out of alot of money isn't much of a stretch. That is using the term conspiracy theory in its lightest sense.
  10. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    Yes, very much sarcasm, sorry it wasn't very obvious.

    I very definitely agree with the other things you said.

    I believe executives are under incredible pressure to improve the bottom line. I think this is part of the faults of capitilism that conservatives are so willing to ignore (thats for a different thread though).

    what about the extreme conspiracies of governments that are somewhat along those same lines. For example letting their own country be bombed to start a war (all the wars in history I read about that were started on purpose were never started by letting your own citizens get killed, usually through means of deciet against the other country - different day and age yes, but I don't know that seems to crazy to me, ESPECIALLY without real evidence).
  11. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    I believe the movie Tora, Tora, Tora goes into the facts of the Pearl Harbor attack, and who knew it was coming. All of the newest Navy ships stationed at Pearl Harbor-which we all "fortunately" out on maneuvers nearly caught the Japanese Fleet as they pulled back, which would have ended the Japanese threat right then and there, and would have allowed the US to concentrate all of their forces on the rest of the Axis. But even if you don't want to accept that without something in paper, the US government did basically poke at Japan economically until they attacked us, under Roosevelt's orders. (I'm pretty sure that is what you're referring to?)

    Yes, but there are still those 5-10% that are not fantasy. So, I doubt that there's anything fantastic at Area 51. Even at Wright Patterson where legend has it there is an intact UFO... I find it hard to believe. I do think that Area 51 is a distraction from what they do have at Wright Patterson though. Namely new and cool aircraft that aren't allowed to be filmed yet, for the security of the air force.

    I'll admit that I don't buy in to every conspiracy theory out there, and most of them are, I agree, bullshit. But if you really pay attention to the news, (and I mean really pay attention, not just watch CNN, Fox News or your local news, actually read everything that gets posted through AP and Rueters) you can see coincidences. If you see too many strings of coincidences, then something might be going on.


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  12. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    Well I wastrying to keep it general, but I was thinking of that example along with the example that a bunch of people on this forum believe that the US actually did the WTC bombing...either that or they LET it happen.

    Does the US have something to gain by going over and laying waste on afghanistan?? I really don't think so, and as far as I can tell nothing good has come out of it for the US government. Maybe they wanted to make more enemies in the middle east and use it as a stepping stone to war...there were a million 'easier' ways to do this, convincing the american people to blow up sadaam would not be difficult.

    As for the pearl harbor bit I don't believe it for a second. I have seen the history channel 'specials' and read the history on it many times. It does not even come close to adding up or proving that eisenhower knew it was happening. Besides, stopping them right before they bombed us would have been just as effective in getting America into the war as letting them destroy most of the fleet at hawaii. It is simply not logical at all, now not everyone functions in the realm of logic, but I give people at least some credit!


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  13. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    Well, off the top of my head, an oil pipeline for the Caspian states is being discussed now that the Taliban have been removed (something that they wouldn't allow). That would allow for billions of barrels a year to come from states less angry at the US. In addition, the Northern Alliance forces can offer a bit of protection from bombing for the pipeline since they're no longer rebel forces.

    I'm sorry if you don't believe about Pearl harbor. Germany was alot closer to winning the war than I think anyone in the US really knew, and we really did have to get in it. (To their credit, they were smart enough to capitalize on the isolationist movement in the US at that time, to take out all of the major competition before tackling the US). But you cannot deny the fact that whether or not anyone knew about the bombing beforehand, we did do everything in our power to provoke the Japanese into allying with Germany and then attacking the US, forcing Germany to honor their treaties and declare war on the US.

    But, no, I don't think that they actually did it. They might have been told something, they might not, it really depends on whether you think the Mossad or "foreign" intelligences are credibles source for these sorts of things or not. Either way, what I think about concrete examples isn't the focus of the thread.
  14. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

    I see what you are saying about the US wanting a reason to go to war with Japan/Germany. In a way this might have been a sort of 'conspiracy'. I think small scale conspiracies (hidden agendas, etc.) do occur, and are occuring at the government level.

    I guess when I read this thread I thought of the more elaborate conspiracy theories. Go to the pseudoscience forum to see what I mean. There is always a thread about the moon landing 'hoax' in there. These are the kind of conspiracies that are born of ignorance and paranoia. Somehow these conpiracy theories do not go away but thrive...
  15. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    I thought we were debating the more grounded ones like the Kennedy Assasination(s), or Pearl Harbor, or even the debasement of gold in fort knox.
  16. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    I understand the reasoning behind the pearl harbor conspiracy theory. We needed to get into the war, theres no doubt about that. Do you guys believe we provoked Japan (I agree with that) or do you believe that we actually allowed Pearl Harbor to happen (I don't believe that-reasons stated up there).

    All consipracies can be brought up in this thread, I would just like them to be treated with logic evaluation rather than, "YOU ARE CLOSE MINDED BECAUSE YOU DONT BELIEVE IT AND THEY CANT PROVE IT SO ITS TRUE!"
  17. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

  18. nroweatherman Registered Senior Member

    great topic lotus

    A vast conspiracy only need be known in part. compartmentalization. If you work on a project, you only know your mini function. people start getting very nervous as you talk about this subject.
    reasons for conspiracies. control. like introducing germs & diseases into society. I watched the medical profession get extremely paranoid. now we have a situation in which steroids & antibiotics are used in mass quantities in livestock. poisoning society against or without our knowledge. genetically engineered food. underground bases & tunnels. some say there are 20,000. what are they using them for? just running a few items by you. gov't bomb plots. patsys. imploded buildings. remote control plane bombs with homing devices. bodies found in places already searched. etc. care to comment?

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  19. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    I'm going to keep this specific to democracies, perhaps specific to western ones.

    Who is doing this? And who wants control through means like that? How many people have you met your life willing to do this? I certainly haven't met anyone, leaders get a lot more control through the very slight things, overblown things such as this get the 'bad' attention of the press, and will only destroy someones career and make the populace pissed off (perhaps starting a revolution).

    You see it is in an elected officials best interest to use common propaganda techniques to 'control' the people, it seems to work really well, and theres nothing secret about it and nothing to get worked up about.

    That seems pretty common knowledge to me. The fda says its safe, what more do you want? They hardly use those steriods and antibiotics to HURT people, they use it because its makes the cows stronger and less prone to disease, therefore the animal farming industry makes more money (and we all know whats important in capitalism don't we?).

    Yes I don't agree its safe, so I made a personal decision to not eat meat, the information is there, anyone can make the same decision as I have if they want to. This is hardly a conspiracy.

    I think you have just bought into leftists hype, I have yet to see what is so terribly evil and bad about gmo's. And this is DEFINITELy common knowledge the world around....HARDLY a conspiracy.

    So your saying our military has 'secret' bases? SHOCKING! of course they do, that would be infinitely stupid to have EVERYTHING out in the open. Where do they hide the president during a crisis? exactly.

    comeone man, 20,000 HIDDEN BASES! sheesh, where the hell are all of them? You think you would occasionaly stumble upon one don't you think? Show me pictures of even 1000 and maybe I'll think a little better of this....haha.
    What in the world are you talking about?

    So our military is developing remote control weapons? shocking!

    You mean murders happen and people try to cover them up? shocking!
  20. nroweatherman Registered Senior Member

    new tv show - "Judge Lotus"

    Who is doing all this? who else? hint. when we fall out of bed each day they get 1 billion $.

    Boy I'd hate to come up in front of you as a judge.

    judge lotus: "so you claimed so & so whacked you up side the head with a wrench. where your proof? surely you don't expect me to accept just your word?"
    nro: "well your honor, my skull was fractured so bad there was six plates required to repair it."
    judge lotus: "could have been self-inflicted. NEXT!"

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  21. dickbaby Banned Banned

    '...seems pretty common knowledge to me. The fda says its safe, what more do you want?'

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  22. Riomacleod Registered Senior Member

    Organized Crime has existed for 100 years in it's "modern" form. The world is full of people who are willing to bully, intimidate, threaten and plot to keep control of the world. granted, i don't know anyone like this personally, but I also don't hang out with the most motivated people in the world. But it's also naive to think that all of the people who are willing to form an empire join the family so to speak.

    Generally speaking, however, we aren't talking about people who are elected. The people who do the most damage are the appointees. CIA directors, people high up in the FBI. Organized Crime. And yes, presidents and congress and judiciary also can participate in some things.

    So, when I think of conspiracy theories, I think of 3 things specifically:

    -Kennedy Assassination
    -The debased gold at fort knox
    -Pearl Harbor (which really wasn't a conspiracy, but whether there was any pre-knowledge)

    More than that there are some more questionable things:
    -Regan Shooting-I just don't buy that Hinkley was trying to impress that actress. Especially since the ex-director of the CIA was standing in the wings to take over.
    -Lenin Murder
    -MLK Jr Murder-Have you ever noticed that people who want to give peace a chance wind up dead? Ever wonder why?

    On the other hand, we have hard, concrete evidence that J. Edgar Hoover stockpiled information on just about everyone who was anyone in the US, and used it as blackmail material, which led to the sweeping reform in the 70's of surveilence rights.

    There are bad people in the world. Lets face it, we see it everywhere. Go to your local prison. there are all sorts of bad people there. people who are willing to kill to get what they want. People who are devoted to "the family" and are willing to kill, take a fall or sometimes even be killed for the organization. I simply don't see why it's so hard to believe that there is a lot that the press doesn't know, or won't tell, and that not every person has our best interest in mind.
  23. lotuseatsvipers CloseMindedBob Registered Senior Member

    ok jackass, did you bother reading the whole post???

    and perhaps if reading is too much of a chore for you, you could still have caught the sarcasm in that statement. Next time Ill be sure to insert a sarcasm tag just for you and the geniuses of the world that can't take a joke.
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2002

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