The problem of Self-Referential systems

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Write4U, Jun 30, 2021.

  1. QuarkHead Remedial Math Student Valued Senior Member

    Write4U, once again you demonstrate a total lack of understanding of science.
    If "IMO" denotes your opinion, remember that science does NOT deal care about opinions - it is an empirical discipline i.e. based on observation and measurement (they are not really different!) and any calculation that may be required to define them.

    Again, science is empirical -reality is that which we can observe, measure or calculate therefrom. Science rejects the Kantian view that there is a "real" world and a phenomenological world which may not coincide.

    Unless you have expressed yourself poorly, you seem to take Kant's position. Fair enough, but it's not science.
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    And you have a total understanding of science? I'm getting sick of this hubris. Tone it down a little, will you?
    If my opinion is based on empirical science it is as valid as your opinion based on empirical science.

    I agree with Max Tegmark that underneath reality lies a mathematical structure, which we have been able to symbolize with human mathematics.
    And what is it that science uses to unlock the mysteries of the Universe? Mathematics. IMO, that proves an empirical truth that Reality is a mathematical construct.
    And "IYO" (in your opinion) I take Kant's position? Do you have empirical proof of that? Seems to me that you just engaged in non-science.

    Note, I am being nice about this.
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  5. phyti Registered Senior Member


    Maybe you haven't noticed, the animal species exhibit programmed behavior, with a limited ability to adapt to their environment. Some migrate large distances without maps or GPS. All repeat cycles of behavior. The bee communicates via dances, salmon return to their spawning ground via sense of smell, etc. Most of their behavior is hardwired. We may interpret their behavior in terms of physical processes, like chemistry according to our own knowledge, but the bees behavior is instinctive. They don't plan, calculate, then act.
    The world of plants, with their geometric patterns, that you have mentioned, results from genetic code the same method as for life forms.
    My question would be, what is the source of the programs.

    It can't be mindless inanimate matter.

    If you had extra money to invest, do you get advice from a stone, a tree, your neighbor's pet, or a person with financial experience?
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  7. phyti Registered Senior Member

    What is doing the selection?
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Oh you are wrong here. Migrating birds do have GPS, they can read and follow the earth's magnetic fields that present a map by which they navigate. Bats and whales have sonar. Does an Octopus act without thought?
    Oh yes hive insects do plan and make decisions by consensus. This has been demonstrated when two scouts are indicating two different locations where food is abundant and a new hive may be established. Because the hive can not split up in different directions, in the end, the swarming hive decides to select one location which is most advantageous to settlement.

    Is this not what happens to humans? Our behavior is mostly evolved hardwired instinct, is it not? So where is the distinction? Awareness already begins with chemical quorum sensing in bacteria and all evolved living things share the same evolutionary time frame. There is an empirically proven hierarchy of levels of conscious awareness. There is no clear demarcation. The same as the abiogenesis, the hierarchy of evolving biological life from pure chemistry.

    You gonna have to expand your horizons. We are not unique, we are uniquely smart, that's all.
    Evolution by way of natural selection, just like all expressed patterns in nature, from atoms to galaxies, from bacteria to humans. There is no magic sauce!
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  9. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

    Go read one…
  10. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

  11. Beaconator Valued Senior Member

    Oh wait since COVID hit its still animals. Or Biden
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Lol, every natural event that ends a chronological evolutionary process, i.e. no opportunity to continue or procreate, is a natural selection event.
    It is a stochastic process, where long term odds favor those natural systems that are best adapted to their environment.

    Darwinian Evolution specifically addresses survival long enough to procreate, which for some species is quite a challenge. The Mayfly only survives by the sheer numbers. Their time alotted for mating may be just a few hours before they die.

    Top 10 Weird Insect Mating Rituals


    By Christopher ShayMonday, Aug. 16, 2010

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    Thomas Ames Jr. / Visuals Unlimited / Corbis
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  13. phyti Registered Senior Member


    They may navigate by magnetic sensory input in a system unique to them, but also use landmarks, just as land animals do.
    Humans have copied ideas from natural behavior like those you mentioned.
    I am not implying that animal life forms don't think or have mental processes, knowing they have brains. There has to be a brain-muscle connection./nervous system. Bees don't form a committee to determine the most suitable form of construction in the hive is the hexagon. All bees around the world are born with that concept or copy it from adult bees. Their primary actions are programmed resulting in repetitive behavior.
    Typically, produce a new generation, pass on survival skills by example, migrate when needed, live out their life span and die. All animals survive using distinctive, predictable patterns of behavior, which on more detailed study, are more complex (as usual) than the simple initial explanations.

    No, it us not. Humans have free will, that allows them to deviate from any biologically driven function. You can avoid eating to protest an unjust cause, stay awake all night for any reason, put yourself in danger to rescue another person or animal.
    An animal; would search for food until satisfied, be up at night if stalking prey, and flee from danger.
    Humans plan for the future; meetings, vacation, insurance, retirement, etc. Not so with animals.
    Humans have a system of justice, holding people accountable for their actions. Not so with animals.
    The behavior of animals is primarily influenced by their programming and the environment.

    No, we are uniquely ignorant! Darwin wrote about his inability to observe adaptation to the environment, and the general population who knew far less, thought he was an expert. You're wasting your time trying to sell me this stuff.

    "Paleontologists have paid an enormous price for Darwin's
    argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to
    preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data
    as so bad that we almost never see the very process we profess to study. ...The
    history of most fossil species includes tow features particularly inconsistent
    with gradualism.
    Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on
    earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they
    disappear; morphological change usually limited and directionless.
    In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.
    (Gould, Stephen J. The Panda's Thumb, 1980, p. 181-182)

    "Often a cold shudder has run through me, and I have asked myself
    whether I may have not devoted myself to a fantasy." (Charles Darwin, The Life and
    Letters of Charles Darwin, 1887, Vol. 2, p. 229)
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Yes, they are navigating the airways.
    Humans have copied the methods used by other species, like flight.
    Natural selection of beneficial behavior.
    I agree.
    The question if humans have free will is wide open and you cannot make a blanket declaration one way or the other.
    Ravens don't plan for the future? Octopus doesn't plan for the future?Squirrels don't plan for the future? Beavers, building dams don't plan for the future? I beg to differ.
    As long as you qualify that statement you're safe, but Apes, Crows and Ravens definitely have a system of justice and banish offenders from their society.
    We were uniquely ignorant until Darwin opened our eyes.
    What are you talking about? We use accelerated evolution by selective breeding of prize species of all kinds all the time.
    I'm interested to know what those two are...

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    Of course they did, they went extinct. Once a species is extinct it doesn't evolve anymore.
    There it is: "irreducible complexity". That notion has been thoroughly debunked.
    Yes, that was 134 years ago and uttered by the man who discovered "evolution by natural selection".

    He was a humble man, not given to bragging. He delayed publishing his work for several years before he was himself convinced and confident enough to share his world-shaking "discovery" with a hostile religious world.
    He was a true scientist, following the scientific method both in theory and in practical pigeon breeding himself.
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2021
  15. phyti Registered Senior Member


    Modifying a species is not creating a different species.
    Plants are grafted to get a variation of that plant.
    You will never convince a cancer patient that genetic mutation is beneficial to their health.
    The life forms in the sea, land, and air, are still surviving in their habitat.
    There was no necessity to move from one environment to another to survive.

    The bird doesn't need scales, gills, or fins.
    The horse doesn't need feathers.
    The fish doesn't need feathers or hooves.
    The worm doesn't need any of those things.
    They all are fit to survive, without modification.
    By the time a bird of prey is ready to fly, it must have acute vision to survive.
    That would apply to the first bird of prey, it can't wait for any form of additional development of its vision.
    The reasons they don't survive are natural disasters, floods, drought, disease, and human intrusion.

    It won't matter what I post, you are thoroughly indoctrinated into evolution.

    "In spite of these examples, it remains true, as every paleontologist knows, that most new species, genera, and families, and that nearly all new categories above the level of families, appear in the record suddenly and are not led up to by known, gradual, completely continuous transitional sequences." (Simpson, George Gaylord, The Major Features of Evolution, 1953, p. 360)

    "The record certainly did not reveal gradual transformations of structure in the course of time. On the contrary, it showed that species generally remained constant throughout their history and were replaced quite suddenly by significantly different forms. New types or classes seemed to appear fully formed, with no sign of an evolutionary trend by which they could have emerged from an earlier type." (Bowler, Evolution: The History of an Idea, 1984, p. 187)
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    If you modify it over long periods of time it does.
    Yes, selective breeding
    No, you are looking at this from the wrong POV. It is the nature of natural selection that some species go extinct in certain environments and make way for species that are adapted and cancer resistant, such as acquiring dark skin in tropical environments. People with dark skin are evolved to withstand cancer producing UV radiation of the sun.
    Yes, natural selection has adapted them perfectly to their environment. Look at it over long periods of time and you will see that almost all species have specific adaptations to allow them best chance for survival.
    That is how Darwin hit upon the idea to begin with. The different beaks of Finches who had different diets from the variety of fruits and nuts in their specific corner of the world.

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    Seen here is adapted radiation of finch A. (Geospiza magnirostris) into three other species of finches found on the Galapagos Islands. Due to the absence of other species of birds, the finches adapted to new niches. The finches' beaks and bodies changed allowing them to eat certain types of foods such as nuts, fruits, and insects.'s_finches
    Right, some adapted to their specific environment (like Darwin's finches), others started migrating (snow geese, gnu, salmon).
    Correct, they don't need those properties.
    Their modification by natural selection was complete and generalized over the entire population, all selection gives the same adapted results and any change is only in gradual refinements, such as long-range eyesight in arial birds of prey.
    Arial birds came long after ground-dwelling birds. All birds are carnivorous and some do not require long-range vision. The ones that do, acquired their acute vision by natural selection, which allowed them to fly higher without losing the detail of the ground.
    A chicken is a bird of prey, a raven is a bird of prey, a stork is a bird of prey, and they all have keen eyesight for very small objects at short distances. You have seen them eat roadkill, no? OTOH, eagles have evolved keen eyesight for long-range observation of small detail.
    Yes, those are the tools of natural selection.

    If you manage to survive all those dangers because you have an extraordinary ability that allows you to survive, you live to procreate and pass on those extraordinary skills.

    This is why the insect is present in such incredible variety and abundance. They are practically indestructible and have survived since the very beginning through 5 Extinction events and inhabit every corner of the earth and constitute greater biomass than all other animals.
    Hold on, I am taking the time to address every one of your concerns. I believe that you, as a reasonable person, may be able to see the logic in "evolution by natural selection" if exposed to the common-sense explanation of what "evolution by natural selection" means. I am not giving up hope on you yet.
    Of course, this guy is contradicting himself here; ("let's just forget about the existing evidence and make contrary assumptions for which there is no evidence").

    It is because of the examples that we can conclude Darwin was on the right track. Not yet perfect, but on point. Any gaps in evolutionary changes depend on what you are looking for and what remains of the fossil record over a few billion years of exposure to natural physics.
    On the contrary, if you look at long time spans, you will see that almost all species have undergone drastic changes, in the direction of the best adaptation to their environment. The species that showed little change over time, just prove that their adaptation was sufficient for all members to survive and produce adapted offspring and that natural selection favored all members equally.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    From the Big Bang to Broadway: How Things Evolve
    Part I: What is Evolution?

    Do yourself a real favor and read some of Robert Hazen's papers. His knowledge and expertise of explaining evolving systems is equal to Carl Sagan and will allow you to see things from a comprehensive scientific POV.

    IMO, Evolution by Natural Selection is the ultimate example of self-referential Universal physics. It is a self-correcting system that stochastically moves in the direction of greater complexity and refinement.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    The programmed result of evolved successful behavior.

    The Hexagon is the most efficient mathematical pattern for maximum storage in a limited space. The hexagonal "honeycomb" is a result of natural selection of the greatest storage efficiency. There is no intent, just naturally evolving mathematics, which becomes programmed (hardwired) in the bee's behavior. It is evidence of natural selection at several different levels.

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    The regular hexagons of honeycombs might owe more to the laws of physics than to honeybees' engineering prowess. Credit: CORDELIA MOLLOY/SPL

    The spider's web is another outstanding example of evolved mathematical skills for very specific purposes.

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    Spider Web
    A net-like structure built by spiders; made of silk threads from the spider’s spinneret glands

    In a mathematical Universe, everything evolves via mathematical algorithms. The only mystery that remains is those mathematics we have not yet discovered.
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2021
  19. phyti Registered Senior Member


    It won't matter what I post, you are thoroughly indoctrinated into evolution.

    Time is not a causal factor.

    Enjoy your fantasy.
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I never claimed that.

    My claim is that time in and of itself does not exist at all but is a result of measurement of the duration of a chronology. Apparently, you don't read my posts or you don't stop to consider what I am saying.

    From wiki;
    I do not subscribe to that notion. Time does not exist independently, but emerges along with the measurable instantiation of a chronological set of events.

    If you paid attention you would discover that nothing I say is from indoctrination, that is the domain of the religious.

    My posits attempt to follow simple logic. There is no irreducible complexity. That is indoctrination by the religious.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  21. QuarkHead Remedial Math Student Valued Senior Member

    And what, pray, do the words "duration" and "chronology" imply other than a temporal metric? This classic circularity

    Then, judged by the above, your attempts fail
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    No it is not, time can only emerge going forward into the future, which is still a timeless void until we get there. The future has no chronology or duration.
    Judged by the evidence it succeeds.

    Time itself is immeasurable. You cannot measure time with time. It is the exact opposite of circularity.

    And if you want to cite "spacetime" that only means the measurable part of the expanding "space". Spacetime has already been created and is measurable. It is the uncreated space that is timeless until we get thence.
  23. phyti Registered Senior Member

    "cause to believe something: to teach somebody a belief, doctrine, or ideology thoroughly and systematically, especially with the goal of discouraging independent thought or the acceptance of other opinions"

    "but defining it in a manner applicable to all fields without circularity has consistently eluded scholars"

    So what's their problem?

    'The Meaning of Relativity', Albert Einstein, 1956:
    page 1.
    "The experiences of an individual appear to us arranged in a series of events; in this series the single events which we remember appear to be ordered according to the criteria of "earlier" and "later", which cannot be analysed further. There exists, therefore, for the individual, an I-time, or subjective time."

    If these 'scholars' would analyze how humans apply 'time', they would know.
    It's a convention for ordering and recording events, using an arbitrarily defined clock event. Any consistent periodic process can define a um. Science wants to make it deep and mysterious.

    In today's world, science is a religion, a belief that it will solve all of humanity's problems.

    "The record jumps, and all the evidence shows that the record is real: the gaps we see reflect real events in life's history not the artifact of a poor fossil record...The fossil record flatly fails to substantiate this expectation of finely graded change."
    (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution Columbia University Press, 1982, p. 59

    Are all these people who question evolution because of lack of evidence, wrong?

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