THE REAL [GOD] = ALLAH ...... join here you all need to know

path · Jan 16, 2005

surenderer said:

The (non-Muslim) historian De Lacy O' Leary wrote: "History makes it clear, however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever accepted." (Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p. 8.). The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia......and there were never any battles fought there! So where was the sword?There are more Muslims there than in the entire M.E. As a Christian Leo you should really be embarrased to ask such a question.....perhaps I should start a thread about the crimes commited by your Pope
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I have seen you post this before and before I showed that this is simply nonsense islam was from day one (starting with Muhammeds 19 campaigns) spread by the sword, if you like I can repost the chronological list of islamic campaigns that helped spread "the religion of peace". No disrespect to you but I can't let O'Learys' nonsense be passed off as true.

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Bells · Jan 16, 2005

path said:

I have seen you post this before and before I showed that this is simply nonsense islam was from day one (starting with Muhammeds 19 campaigns) spread by the sword, if you like I can repost the chronological list of islamic campaigns that helped spread "the religion of peace". No disrespect to you but I can't let O'Learys' nonsense be passed off as true.
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Ermm path, the early Caliphs who conquered cities like Jerusalem for example were known to be very tolerant of other faiths and ruled quite evenly. I'd suggest you read Karen Armstrong's Holy War, (published in 1988), where she describes the Khalif Omar's arrival in Jerusalem and the tolerance that he displayed for the non-muslims who resided there (page 30-31), and where she also describes the Crusades in vivid detail. Even the Jews acknowledge that the early Muslim conquerors of Jerusalem were very tolerant. It all went ape-shit from around the 10th century, but there were some Muslim conquerors who showed respect and tolerance of other faiths in their conquered lands:

By the 4th century, some Jews had managed to make their way back to the city. In the 5th century, under early Christian rule, Jews were, at various times, either more or less free to practice their religion. At this time, few non-Christian communities remained in the country, apart from the Jews. Theodosius II (408-450) deprived the Jews of their relative autonomy and their right to hold public positions. Jewish courts were forbidden to sit on mixed Jewish-Christian cases and the construction of new synagogues was prohibited. Jews were forbidden to enter Jerusalem except on one day a year, to mourn the destruction of the Temple.

At the beginning of the 7th century, the Jews looked to the Persians for salvation. Hoping to be permitted to worship freely once the Byzantine oppression had been removed, the Jews encouraged the Persians' conquest of Acre and Jerusalem, and a Jewish community was subsequently allowed to settle and worship in Jerusalem (614-17), though it was later expelled. Under early Arab rule, a Jewish community was reestablished in Jerusalem and flourished in the 8th century. Jews were even among those who guarded the walls of the Dome of the Rock. In return, they were absolved from paying the poll-tax imposed on all non-Muslims. In the 10th and 11th centuries, however, harsh measures were imposed against the Jews by the Fatimids, who seized power in 969. Though the Jewish academy (Yeshiva) of Jerusalem was compelled by Caliph Al-Hakim to reestablish itself in Ramle, entry to Jerusalem was revived by the "Mourners of Zion", Diaspora Jews who did not cease to lament the destruction of the Temple. This movement, which held that "aliyah" -- ascent to the Land -- would hasten the resurrection of Israel, was at its peak in the 9th-11th centuries. Many Jews came from Byzantium and Iraq and established communities.

The Crusader period in the 12th century brought terrible massacres of Jews by Christians, and the prohibition against living in Jerusalem. After the conquest of the country by Saladin late in the century, the Jewish community in Jerusalem again grew considerably.
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem3.htm
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Path, what I'm trying to say here is that both Muslims and Christianity were guilty of spreading their religion by the sword. Hence why they were called conquerors and crusaders.

But not all conquerors were the same. Some were tolerant. To say that all were tolerant would be distorting history and frankly a lie, just as it would be a distortion of fact and a failure to recognise the events of history to state that all were intolerant. Your prejudice only shows you what you wish to see.

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surenderer · Jan 16, 2005

Hi Bells
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,

Ermm I guess you don't read much about Aceh, where both Muslims and Christians are at constant battle to the point of nearly being open warfare at times
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You are probably right I dont know alot about Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam....I thought their wars was because of a Separatist Movement not because of a religous issue......<shrug>

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surenderer · Jan 16, 2005

path said:

I have seen you post this before and before I showed that this is simply nonsense islam was from day one (starting with Muhammeds 19 campaigns) spread by the sword, if you like I can repost the chronological list of islamic campaigns that helped spread "the religion of peace". No disrespect to you but I can't let O'Learys' nonsense be passed off as true.
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It should also be known that Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire? Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will. I dont know anyone who was "forced"
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.....peace

Bells · Jan 16, 2005

surenderer said:

Hi Bells
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,

You are probably right I dont know alot about Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam....I thought their wars was because of a Separatist Movement not because of a religous issue......<shrug>
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My bad.. I do apologise for my mistake. This is what happens when I type when I've got a migraine. Aceh is in the midst of a seperatist war with the Government forces. I just remembered which province is the one with the religious conflicts in Indonesia. The Moluccan Islands.

However the Moluccan Islands that have become a hotbed of religious conflicts in Indonesia. Tensions arose when a fare dispute between a Muslim immigrant and a Christian taxi driver began in 1999. Since then, thousands of people have been killed in conflicts between the two parties. Hostility spread to a number of provinces, mainly in eastern Indonesia, home to a majority of the country's Christians. Thousands of Muslim guerrilla fighters from other islands are attacking Christian villages in the Moluccas and Sulawesi in what they have declared to be a jihad. And Christians have also been accused of rampaging into Muslim villages. Quid pro quo in stupid religious battles that don't get anyone anywhere except for being killed.

Again I apologise for my stupid mistake.

one_raven · Jan 16, 2005

Bells said:

However the Moluccan Islands that have become a hotbed of religious conflicts in Indonesia. Tensions arose when a fare dispute between a Muslim immigrant and a Christian taxi driver began in 1999. Since then, thousands of people have been killed in conflicts between the two parties. Hostility spread to a number of provinces, mainly in eastern Indonesia, home to a majority of the country's Christians. Thousands of Muslim guerrilla fighters from other islands are attacking Christian villages in the Moluccas and Sulawesi in what they have declared to be a jihad. And Christians have also been accused of rampaging into Muslim villages. Quid pro quo in stupid religious battles that don't get anyone anywhere except for being killed.
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Well, if he was trying to cheat the guy out of his fare, it was worth it, no?
Sounds justifyable to me.

That's the poing I was trying to make.
Religion doesn't often cause these things, they will happen regardless, it's human nature.
Religion serves as a ready and available excuse, and it is used as a tool.

I personally think we would be better off without religion, but to think it would end all wars (or even make significantly less wars happen) is naive, in my opinon.
There is always land, country, family, way of life, color of skin, food, political beliefs and countless other excuses to chose from.

Bells · Jan 16, 2005

one_raven said:

Well, if he was trying to cheat the guy out of his fare, it was worth it, no?
Sounds justifyable to me.
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Heh..

I shouldn't be laughing at the thought of an evasion of a fare being part of the start of a conflict that has claimed thousands of lives, but it seems so absurd to me.

That's the poing I was trying to make.
Religion doesn't often cause these things, they will happen regardless, it's human nature.
Religion serves as a ready and available excuse, and it is used as a tool.
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I agree with you. Religion and its holy texts are used as tools by foolish people who aren't stupid, but hell bent on pushing forth their own agenda. As I sit here listening to Mason William's Classical Gas, I think to myself why fight over some holy boo?. It is human nature to war with others. We are too competitive not to. We are too greedy not to. Religion merely gives people a tool to attain their desires of power. Where in ancient history wars were faught by rival tribes, not because of their beliefs so much, but to take their females, land and its resources, the advent of religion has only continued the tribal notions. Each religion thinks they are better than the other and to invade and persecute others not of the same faith is a means to ensure that their beliefs and values are forced upon others, thereby ensuring that the numbers of their particular religion goes up, making them more powerful. So often here I see arguments and discussions about how many Muslims or Jews or Christians there are in the world and how each religion claims that their numbers are climbing while others of other faiths argue that it's falling. It's still that backward tribal competion of who has the bigger numbers in the tribe.

I look at reports where Muslims claim that their's is the fastest growing religion, and Christians exclaiming that their numbers are dropping. All I can think of is so what? Who cares? And I do realise that it's not the religion that causes the wars or conflicts or acts against humanity. It's the people who wish to be powerful. It's the same as that silly little saying of it's not guns that kill people, but it's people who kill people. It can be applied in the same way to religion. It's not religion that causes war, competition or conflicts, but the people within these religions. Each person, no matter what their religion, thinks that theirs is the best and should apply to all others. The more indoctrinated one is in a religion, the more that belief pushes forth in who they are and become. I see it in my own family, where many are of different faiths. The competition continues and in its wake, is pain.

I personally think we would be better off without religion, but to think it would end all wars (or even make significantly less wars happen) is naive, in my opinon.
There is always land, country, family, way of life, color of skin, food, political beliefs and countless other excuses to chose from.
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I agree. And that's well said. Homo sapiens would always find some excuse to try to destroy each other in a bid to climb that ladder to power and wealth. For now, religion is a tool. Each claims that their God is more powerful and more loving and therefore they are correct. Racist use the same arguments... the I'm white and therefore better than anyone else who's not white. Politics use the my party is better than your party. Etc. All tools can be dangerous when put in the wrong hands, religion is just one of the biggest tools and one that can cause the most pain and destruction. You're right, if religion did not exist, human beings would only find some other means or belief to discriminate and attempt to destroy others with.

But then in some naive part of me, I think if there was no religion, it couldn't be used as a tool for racism, to kill, to destroy families, to pollute politics, etc. It'd be one less tool we'd have to deal with.

path · Jan 16, 2005

Bells and surrenderer you are both missing the point, I didn't claim muslims were historically harsh rulers (that is another topic) I said islam was spread by the sword from day one.

a short list of islamic expansion in the decades after muhammeds' death.

B]632 - 634[/B] Abu Bakr, one of the Prophet's first converts and his father-in-law, established the caliphate (khilaafa, or, "succession"), initiating the first dynasty of caliphs (sing. khalifa, plural, khulafaa ). These first four caliphs became known as al-rashidoon ("the rightly-guided ones"), and, they ruled from their capital in Medina. All four were, like the Prophet himself, members of the leading clan of Mecca, the Quraysh, and, thus, were close relatives of the Prophet. The period of the Muslim conquest dates from this time. Abu Bakr sent Muslim armies into Syria and Iraq. Scholars debate about whether it is more proper to refer to the expansion of Muslim power as a jihad ("striving," and "holy war"), or as a hijra, ("migration"). In any case, resistance was minimal. The Byzantine Empire was too weak and torn with internal strife (see Councils of Nicea and Chalcedon) to resist the incoming tide of fresh, vital Arabian energy.

634 - 644 Caliphate of Umar Ibn al-Khattab, handpicked successor to Abu Bakr. Most of the Islamic "conquest" took place during his time. In 644, he was murdered by a Christian slave.

636 Battle of Yarmuk: The Byzantine army was defeated by the Muslims. Muslim sovereignty over Palestine begins.

637 Battle of Qadisiyya: The Sasanian army was defeated by the Muslims. After the Muslim victories over the Byzantine and Sasanian armies, Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, and Persia fell under Muslim control.

638 The "Covenant of Umar," a pact between Umar Ibn Khatib and the Christians of Jerusalem, was concluded on the occasion of the conquest of that city by the Muslims. Umar decreed that Muslims should forever thereafter guarantee Christians freedom of religion, use of their churches for worship, and the right to visit holy places. In another version, Umar rescinded the Roman decrees that had banished Jews from Jerusalem and accorded Jews all the rights granted Christians.

Non-Muslims were not required to participate in jihad (military action in defense of Islam) nor did they have to pay the zakat (the tax for charity required of all Muslims), but they were required to pay the jizya, a poll tax that helped defray the expense of protecting them. Since Muslim taxes amounted to considerably less than what had been exacted from them under Byzantine rule and since Muslims allowed them much more freedom to pursue their own customs and religious beliefs, Jews and Christians almost universally welcomed their new rulers.

639-641 Egypt was conquered by the Muslim general Amr, who built a new capital, Misr al-Fustat, ("city of the tent"): the future Cairo.

644 - 656 Caliphate of Uthman Ibn Affan. The Qur'an, as we know it, was edited in his time but would not reach final form until as late as 935. By the time Uthman assumed the caliphate, confusion had begun to abound over which of at least four different existing texts was the definitive word of God as transmitted to Muhammad. The Prophet, who himself was illiterate, had dictated the Qur'an to his followers. They memorized it, the normal method of transmission for Arabic poetry. Only after the Prophet's death did it occur to anybody to write it down. The rapidly escalating confusion prompted Uthman to appoint a committee in 650 to come up with a single, authoritative text. The Prophet's secretary, Zaid Ibn Thabit, served on that committee.

Uthman met his end in 656, murdered while praying by disgruntled Egyptians. Mu'awiyya, Umayyad governor of Syria, hearing of the threats against his uncle, Uthman, had sent soldiers to rescue him, but they arrived too late. Thus began the first fitna ("dissension"), or, civil war, in Islam. One of the earliest dissident groups in Islam, the Kharijites, emerged at this time.

This was a turning point. After this time, the unified, brotherly body of believers (the umma) that Muhammad had sought to create and which apparently did mark the earliest years, lived on only in the theology, nostalgic memory, and hopes of Muslims, but, never again in their history.

656 - 661 Caliphate of Ali Ibn Talib, cousin of the prophet, also son-in-law by virtue of his marriage to Muhammad's daughter, Fatima. Ali moved the Arab capital from Medina to Kufa in southern Iraq. His sons were Husayn (martyred in 680), and Hasan (who died in 669). During Ali's caliphate, the split in the Muslim umma ("community") intensified over the question, should a direct familial descendant of Muhammad, or, a selected leader from his tribe become caliph? The two chief sects in Islam appeared at this point: the Shiites ("partisans," i.e. partial to the caliph Ali and his descendants through Husayn) favoring the first option (today only 15% of all Muslims), and the Sunni ("orthodox") favoring the second path.

Ali angered the Kharijites when, following an inconclusive military engagement with the Umayyads, the Battle of Siffin in 658, he agreed to submit his dispute with the Umayyads to arbitration, a process that was decided in favor of the more powerful party, the Umayyads. Ali was murdered by the Kharijites in Kufa in 661 and buried in the nearby city of Najaf, a major shrine for Shiites.

698: Muslim conquest of north africa complete, preparations begin for invasion of spain.

711: conquest of most of spain complete

731: Muslim advance into europe stopped by Charles Martel at Poitier France

slotty · Jan 19, 2005

Brutus1964 said:

Slotty

The first step is always denial.
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If there is an organising intelligence behind the structure of the universe, thus far it has shown far more interest in bacteria and insects, than in domesticated primates, You are probably wasting your time with the praying thing.

real-life · Feb 20, 2005

I'm muslem and I love ur way in taking( one_raven ), and i want u to that i read lots of ur reply and know that you will find the real relagion (step by step)that reach you to heavn .
I swear that i ask the God (allah) to beacon you to the right way !!!
there is in my book(quran) anice sentence i dont remember it clearly but i will translate it ."you cant (human) beacon or light someone you love or like to the real relagion ,but the good can do"

note:-
*everyone in this life should know his location in the universe .
*sorry for my bad english, i wish that you can understand what i mean .
*this is the first time that i take with non-moslem a bout his faith or religion.
*do you know what is the meaning of moslem?????
thank u for reading
thank for all people that take about islam neither negative or positive (its the first step).

Athelwulf · Feb 21, 2005

muhammad, I wish ya hadn't posted such long posts. I'll hafta respond one post at a time.

peace on those who follow the right way to (ALLAH) the only great and unique god for the whole world and planets and all mankind and the only god who made everything .. made your brain and gave you eyes and life and he can take it and stop you from thinking and can force you to believe in him and erase all data programmed in your mind that give you ability to think there is another god
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How do you know Allah even exists?

did you study the cells and biology ??
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Me? I took biology my Freshman year in high school. I guess that counts.

ALLAH made your brain cells and each millimeter from it
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Who says?

he could program your brain to know him only and never think in another god
could program you to do all right things and never make mistakes

ALLAH doesnt force people to believe in him

but ..... its a test .... big and hard test so he gives you the freedom to choose till this test ends and at last ...... heavens forever
or ... hell forever
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Sounds just like the Judeo-Christian god, who I think doesn't exist either.

first of all im not so good at english so excuse me if you find it hard to understand me ...
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That's alright. At least ya have a reasonable excuse.

my name is muhammad and i live in egypt im 28 years old ... studied engineering and i got a high score on IQ tests ... i work on computer field
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Okay. Nice to meet ya.

i entered this forum to give you some guide lines you may follow may not
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Well, I appreciate yer wanting to help us.

if you deserve and ALLAH loves you ....he will guide you
if you dont deserve then none can guide you but ALLAH
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So whether or not one is deserving, Allah will guide him/her?

i know there are closed minds and actually closed hearts everywhere in world
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Yes, it's very sad.

i got no time now to discuss everything here and too many questions i know all atheists asking like why god lets me feel hungry why do others die starving why are there volcanos why why ...
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Um . . . Okay.

i just say if you find your way and know how great is ALLAH and that he doesnt need humans but humans need him and if you know that ALLAH is independant and we are poor and you know ALLAH is not unjust and if you know ALLAH isnt like us or similar to anything in world or in your imagination

if you know so and reach this point .. ( you will not reach it unles you deserve it ) if you reach it ... you will know that all these strange things are there to test you till the end and stresses all humans to pick the good and clean hearts and leave the dirty dead hearts
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Seems a bit cruel, the "dirty dead hearts" bit. I don't believe anyone truly has a dirty, dead heart.

as if its GOLD being tested by fire scum goes to trash and only original and good GOLD left
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Interesting analogy.

read this example ....
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*Reads*

lets suppose you made some puppets and you put them in a closed room

those puppets move using electricity or batteries and they dont see or know thier maker who made them

lets suppose those puppets has the ability to talk ..... and think ....

do they have the right to think that their maker is the same like them walks using electricity or needs batteries ?? .......
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They do, but they'd be incorrect.

I get what ye'r saying though. Ye'r saying that Allah is not restricted like we are.

well well

take this one

you make a pc computer and this computer works using CDS and DVDS and hard disk

does the computer have the right to think that the human who made it

uses CDS or DVDS ?
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I don't think that computers think.

humans come from mother and get born and they need food and they die and they are weak
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It's good that you understand human mortality.

so do we humans have the right to think that god is like us ??
he is born ??? ...... he eats ????? ......... he sleeps ????

he needs wife ...... ??

he needs son ....... ???

he borns ........ ??

he ..... ?? he ....... ?????
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Yes we do, but assuming that such a god existed, we may or may not be correct.

ok i give you translation for a small part of the QURAAN

[. . .]

see ?

ALLAH is above what in your selves and your minds

try to wonder how great is that god who made skies and planets and planets we didnt see and things we dont know ???
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Only the Koran says there exists an Allah — just like only the Torah says there exists a Jehovah, and only the Bible says there exist a God and His Son Jesus.

earth + humans = a dot in this world = almost nothing in this existence

so .......does ALLAh need this (dot) or need to lie to this (dot) and say im your god ...... surrender to me you weak (dot) ??

how unjust is the human ... ALLAH created him and he was nothing

now he says god you are not there and i dont want you or need you !!

and says bad words about his god ...... god who can cut your tongue and can destroy you and the whole existence
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Assuming Allah exists, of course.

in fact ALLAh doesnt need you but he is great kind to give those who follow his way give them heavens and everything and love them
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If He doesn't need us, why did He make us? Please tell.

ALLAH has great patience and you should know a fact came from ALLAH to his messenger MUHAMMAD

1 DAY of ALLAH = 1000 DAYS of humans

yes you didnt read it wrong its right...... 1 day = 1000 days
imagine it and be sure its a truth
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How do you know?

if you believe ALLAH made this existence and everything then u believe he can do everything and he is not subjected to physical or dynamic laws !
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Not necessarily. Some higher power could theoredically make everything and not be able to do everything and be subject to the laws of physics.

ALLAH made laws ALLAH can destroy laws .. ALLAH made gravity and can deactivate it ALLAh made human and made him needs food and needs to sleep .. ALLAH made us and made our day and month and year
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Why?

all we know about ALLAH is what he told us
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Or what the Koran has told us, which we haven't proven to be true.

so what did he tell us ?? and how do you know ??

where ??

ok here it is

it is the ISLAM

www. islamway .com

islam is the way to know ALLAH

the only accepted religion from ALLAh

islam came after bible

bible was edited by humans and its has lots of human mistakes

the real bible was there yes before MUHAMMAD the last prophet of ALLAH

the bible was true when JESUS ( the prophet of ALLAH ) was there

we all muslims believe in all books came from ALLAH before muhammad and before islam

but we believe in those books was not edited or changed by humans

those books all over the years and history that have one main message

the message is ( there is only one god [ALLAH])

the real bible says that MUHAMMAD will FOLLOW JESUS

we all muslims believe that JESUS is a great prophet of ALLAH

but he is just a human eats and pisses and sleeps
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Why is the Koran true and not the Torah or the Bible?

another part from QURAAN
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59] The similitude of 'Isa before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him "Be": and he was.

[60] The Truth (comes) from thy Lord alone; so be not of those who doubt.

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so if you think that your god eats or sleeps or pisses and enters tolilette then how fool and unjust are you ?

if you think the great god who made the planets is like us borns and needs a son then how fool and unjust are you ???
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First of all, that snippet of the Koran says nothing about Allah not needing to eat and sleep. Second of all, someone else's god may be a different god. Not all believe that their god is infinite and absent of creature needs.

we all muslims believe that MUHAMMAD is the last prophet for all people and he followed JESUS

MUHAMMAD for other prophets is like the last rock in building to be completed
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How do you know Mohammad wasn't lying or crazy?

when you ask your self those question like why people die and why people steal .......

tell your self that .. ALLAH has control on my brain and he made my cells he can stop me of thinking in this issue and he can force me to forget it

but he lets me think in these things coz it is a test
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And how does that answer the question of why people die and steal?

AND now .... i gave you the way and the only way to ALLAH

islamway
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Thanks again for wanting to help.

read about islam from trusted resources only and never give your ears to any enemy of islam
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Actually, I think everyone should know both sides of the argument. Besides, if Islam is truly the only way to Allah, won't that way still be obvious even after one has talked to an "enemy of Islam"?

some people will say oooooh islaaaam ???

ohhhh terrorists !!!!!

killers !!
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Only the conservatives, Christians, and others who fear what they don't understand say that.
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if i got 10 childs and i gave them instructions that make the human perfect and good person

if 2 or 3 of them or even the 10 became theives

can you blame the instrctions or blame the childs coz they are not good and dont follow the right way ??
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What makes a human perfect and good is very subjective. Maybe there are people on this Earth that believe that theives are perfect and good people.

But to answer yer question, the children are somewhat to blame.

not all muslims are good and not all muslims are real muslims

and muslims by the way are humans who make rights and mistakes
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I would agree to that.

but islam is the rules and messages of ALLAH islam is surrender to your god who made you

and a good thing you should know

every muslims will see ALLAH in other life after death
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Where did you get this information?

you dont see ALLAH in life coz if you see ALLAH there is no test then all is over
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That's a bit of a cop out.

151] Say: "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from": join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want - We provide sustenance for you and for them - come not nigh to shameful deeds, whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

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killing in wars is something else

imagine u got a pretty wife and children and i came to your house to cut their necks or kill them
will u say thank you or u gonna fight me and try to kill me ??..... ?
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I would really like to do the latter if ya killed my wife and children. But there's a better way of handling it, and that better way is reporting it and letting the justice system take care of it.

the real terrorist can be usa who killed millions for one man or for petrol and land if i think using your way to think .
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It wouldn't be the USA, but Bush, the volunteer army, and all that support them, which is unfortunately half of the nation.

what was right in this letter its from ALLAH he caused me to do it
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I think you did it all by yerself.

and what was wrong here its from my self i ask ALLAH to forgive me im trying to help people .
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I thought ya said that it was from Allah, and not you. And why would Allah punish you for something he caused you to do? That's not a very fair god.

MUHAMMAD the prophet of ALLAH was ( illiterate )

he couldnt read or write

and ALLAH chose him to carry his message to people
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That doesn't validate the claim.

SnakeLord · Feb 21, 2005

If you see this guy with a knife, hide.

real-life · Feb 21, 2005

just correct
"you cant (human) beacon or light someone you love or like to the real relagion ,but the GOD can do"
thanks
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786 · Feb 21, 2005

Brutus1964 said:

To me the statement “By their fruits you may know them” can sum up the worth of any religion. What are the fruits of Islam? Are Muslims a happy and prosperous people? Does Islam benefit and bless it's own believers as well as mankind in general? Do Muslims seek to convert people with love and faith or by force? Does Islam teach to love all man kind including their enemies? Do Muslims only fight to defend their people and their faith, or do they start wars in order to force and subjugate non-adherence to their own belief system. Are Muslims charitable even with those who do not share their faith? Do Muslim leaders seek to benefit and comfort their flock, and do they teach them love and understanding for others? Do Muslim's believe that God loves everyone and wants all his children to succeed? Please tell me what are the good fruits of Islam?
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You question the fruits of Islam. Why don't we look at the fruits of Christianity first.

How many are alcoholics? (Hint: Millions upon Millions!!!!)
How many are involved in committing adultry? (Hint: Millions upon Million)(Hint
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layboy)

Just answer these two for a while.

Peace be unto you
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786 · Feb 21, 2005

Brutus1964 said:

To me the statement “By their fruits you may know them” can sum up the worth of any religion. What are the fruits of Islam?
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Many, but if you were able to see without your bias.

Are Muslims a happy and prosperous people?
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Depends. Cuz the Saudi Arabians sure look prosporous. Although other countries don't. But everyone is tried (test) the Muslims are in a bad shape now because rarely anyone follows the religion. This was like a prophesy made by Muhammad (pbuh) about the end of times.

Does Islam benefit and bless it's own believers as well as mankind in general?
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Islam is the only religion that banns alcohol. To my knowledge alcohol is bad for you. So yes Islam benefits the people. Islam teaches you to do the righteous things, so again it helps all humanity.

Do Muslims seek to convert people with love and faith or by force?
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We were discussing the religion or the people. But any ways depends. But if you know your history then you should read what the Christians did to the Jews. And also the Muslims in Spain. They FORCED them to convert of leave.

Same would apply to some Muslims. But the thing is that is what the PEOPLE did. The RELIGION TEACHES "There is no compulsion in religion". Now if the people don't follow then why blame the religion?

Does Islam teach to love all man kind including their enemies?
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Ok let me just say that Islam teaches us that if you take the life of one human unjustly then it is like if you have killed the whole of humanity. But if you save one life then it is like you have saved whole of humanity. But if you kill for a just reason, for example responding to an attack, then it is fine.

Do Muslims only fight to defend their people and their faith, or do they start wars in order to force and subjugate non-adherence to their own belief system.
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Well if you talked about the RELIGION which is Islam, and what it says I would simply say that. Islam urges you to fight ONLY if you are fighting the oppressors, or for the right and justice. There maybe other things allowed but i don't remember them now.

Now let me ask you Do Christians fight for the right or for OIL?

Are Muslims charitable even with those who do not share their faith?
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Yes. The reasons you ask these questions are because you haven't studied Islam yourself. I recommend you do that.

Do Muslim leaders seek to benefit and comfort their flock, and do they teach them love and understanding for others?
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Well it depends again, because we are talking about the Muslims which are the PEOPLE not the RELIGION. But the religion which is ISLAM does teach understanding and love for others.

Do Muslim's believe that God loves everyone and wants all his children to succeed?
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It's not about if GOD WANTS it is about WHAT YOU DO. Because he has given you the free will. Do Good or do bad, the choice is yours.

But if we were to discuss if GOD WANTS. Then let me say this to you, if God really wanted he could've put everyone in heaven WITHOUT the sacrifice of Jesus (pbuh). Because GOD is able to do ANYTHING he didn't need to sacrifice. (Although I don't believe in his crucifixion, since I'm a Muslim)

Please tell me what are the good fruits of Islam?
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The basis of Islam is “iman” and “iz’an”, that is, faith, and conscious obedience. The fruits of Islam are “ihsan” (blessings) and “ihklas” (sincerity), that is acting or living as if seeing God, and doing everything only for the sake of God Almighty.

Peace be unto you
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path · Feb 22, 2005

786 said:

You question the fruits of Islam. Why don't we look at the fruits of Christianity first.

How many are alcoholics? (Hint: Millions upon Millions!!!!)
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Is that a fruit of xtianity? Why don't you show us how you arrive at this.
(hint: is the fact that the islamic republic of Iran now has a heroin addiction that is three times higher than the birthrate rate a fruit of islam?)

How many are involved in committing adultry? (Hint: Millions upon Million)(Hint
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layboy)
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Is adultery a fruit of xtianity? Doesn't one of the ten commandements say "thou shalt not commit adultery?
(hint: Does this story about adultery in Pakistan from yesterday mean that adultery is a fruit of islam?)

Just answer these two for a while.
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They were stupid but I answered them anyway
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spidergoat · Feb 22, 2005

Muslims are drunks, too. Just look at the history of the Saudi royal family. Even Osama Bin Laden used to drink and womanize when he was in Beirut.

The religion as it is officially recognized, and the way it is implemented are two very different things.

786 · Feb 22, 2005

spidergoat said:

Muslims are drunks, too. Just look at the history of the Saudi royal family. Even Osama Bin Laden used to drink and womanize when he was in Beirut.

The religion as it is officially recognized, and the way it is implemented are two very different things.
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It may be so. But Islam banns alcohol while Christianity does not.

To Path.

yes the commandments contain "thou shalt not commit adultry" but Commandments aren't followed by the Christians anymore.

Peace be unto you
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path · Feb 22, 2005

786 said:

yes the commandments contain "thou shalt not commit adultry" but Commandments aren't followed by the Christians anymore.
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Gee it's nice that you can cover "all the christians" with a blanket statement like that
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kinda like when non-muslims catagorize "all muslims" as terrorists.

good job

spidergoat · Feb 22, 2005

banning alcohol is stupid, christianity is better if for this reason only

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