The Scientific Proof That God Exists!!

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by TruthSeeker, Feb 3, 2002.

  1. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't know whre to put it, so I've put in many forums...

    Here is the explanation:

    According to Quantum Physics, energy comes in "packs". And this "packs" have a certain amount of energy. Energy has many frequencies. Matter is just one of the frequencies. We can't detect anything beyond 299,792,458 m/s. God is not made by matter, so, we can't detect Him. And He is an Spirit, so we are. And Life is a type of energy too that cannot be detected because is beyond the limit established by light.
    How do I know that there is something beyond the limit? Where do you think that those particles from the Vacuum come from? Think about it...

    THE PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS!!!

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    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
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  3. Porfiry Nomad Registered Senior Member

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    Stop cross-posting or you will be banned.
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks to the warning...

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    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
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  7. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    This post drew me back through time and space...

    Condensing one of the most intricate, complicated, and difficult to understand theories in the history of our civiliation into those 4 sentences is like paraphrasing the bible to:

    Yea, and the Lord said, "Be good."

    Plus, these statements in no way tie into the rest of your hypothesis.

    This statement:
    a) Implies the existence of a deity, the proving of which is the entire point of your post
    b) Makes a random unqualified statement that said deity is not made of matter
    c) Ignores that a magnetic force exerted on a paper clip is not made by matter, but we can detect that.
    d) all of the above


    Whaaaaaaaat? Language problems, I'm guessing.

    If we can't detect it by any means, how does it interact with us? We are living beings, so that 'Life energy' must interact with us somehow. And, since we are made of matter, that would tend to imply that the 'Life energy' could interact with matter.

    I thought about it.. My answer to your first question is: "I don't know." My answer to your second question is: "I don't know." (In part because 'particles from the Vacuum' is somewhat vague)

    In that last section, you are asking the reader to make the a leap of logic. You pose a question, suggest an answer the question.. and leave it at that. I'm not going to latch on to 'God' any more than I am an 'anti-semitic toaster oven from dimension X', because they are simply potential answers, not proven ones.

    Thanks,
    FyreStar
     
  8. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Further explanations...

    It is easy to see that you didn't understand anything that I said. I can't do nothing if your thoughts are so slow.

    As matter is a form of energy and there are other forms of energies, of course, they will interact, as there is only ONE energy (God) that has many different expressions (damn, anyone never explained that to you?).

    We can't detect energies beyond this limit (light) simply because we don't have any kind of instrument that can detect anything but matter. Black Holes for example, we only know that it exists because of the interection it has with matter. And this explain my statement about Vacuum. The Vacuum interacts with matter! It seems that you never read about that... ask for people about the particles that come from Vacuum...!

    About deites made by matter...

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    Do you really think that someone powerful would manifest himself in a so low energetic form of energy such as matter? Matter is almost stoped energy! If you are made by high energy (which gives you power), you won't manifest yourself here, would you? It's why He don't usually manifest Himself here (only when we are to dumb to understand...)

    About the interaction, the answer is Quantum Gravity. I won't explain for you... you won't understand anyways...

    About Life and Spirits. You have a Life, you are a Spirit. Did Scientists ever detected Life? But we know that it exists, because we are alive! Only because we can't detect life, this doesn't mean that it does not exists. It's just a highter form of energy, so are the Spirits.

    Conclusion:

    So this finishes it. God is Energy. Remember what is Energy? Capacity of do work!! God is the creationist power. Well, this answers the question. You are just an expression of God, just as the Bible says...

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    Well, I think I answered all your "questions" (if you are intelligent enough to understand...)

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  9. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    Trying to prove the existence of God, the soul ...anything connected to spirituality, is like trying to prove to a blind person that there are colours.
    Or trying to prove the existance of radiowaves for the Amish people....sorry.

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  10. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    You are right anyways, Bebelina...
    It's hard to do it... but it's part of my work...
    I do what I should be doing,
    I have Inner Peace,
    And I never lose my Faith...

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    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  11. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    Personal attacks already! When will I learn that rational discussion with fanatics is impossible.. not today!

    Well actually, we have lots of instruments that detect things other than matter. Ask anyone with eyes. Or anyone with a bathroom scale. If it could only detect matter, it would read the same for a cubic foot of lead as it would for a cubic foot of feathers.


    You know what? I don't know the answer to that. I also don't presume to know the answer because my answer happens to coincide well with my beliefs. Your 'argument' has no more validity than its reverse.

    Matter is almost stopped by energy? Perhaps you'd care to explain the context in which matter may or may not be stopped. Oh, and what manner of power are you talking about? I suppose that over time, energy would translate to power, but you aren't clear on which you mean. The "Do as I say!" kind? Or the "1.21 Jiggawatts" kind? Also, that last line about the mysterious him manifesting himself again IMPLIES WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO PROVE. This invalidates your argument, so STOP doing it.

    Try me. As a student of physics, I'm willing to be that I have a hell of a lot more understanding than you do on that subject. Or maybe you were saying that to hide your own dismal lack of knowledge. Prove me wrong.

    Random assertations. You going to back these up or am I going to have to guess what you mean or gloss over them? Why should that sentence be any different than "You have a Purple Elephant, you are a fire-breathing dragon"?

    Why yes, yes we have. In fact, this planet has trillions of perfect specimens.

    So what is your hypothesis exactly? The title of your post seems to say that the hypothesis is "God exists", but here at the end it seems to have changed to "God is Energy". And you end that paragraph referring to the bible, yet another source that assumes the existence of a god.
    Wow, that was a zinger. Here's mine: Maybe if you went out and bought a book on the methods of debate and argumentation, rather than repeatedly delving into your pouch of assumptions, falsities, and condescending attitude, you might make a better showing in this thread.

    Thanks,
    FyreStar
     
  12. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    More proofs about the things I said in this thead...

    Wasn't personal attack... I'm just telling the Truth... The Truth is that I should discuss the Truth in a forum about SCIENCE. Instead I should tell the Truth only for those who deserve to listen to it. Didn't Jesus told the Truth.

    HEY CHRISTIANS! REPLY TO MY POSTS! THEY SAY THAT GOD DOESN'T EXISTS AND SOME OF THEM EVEN SAY BAD THINGS ABOUT JESUS!

    Yeah... Jesus told the Truth. And have been crucified...

    Jesus said in Matthew 7:6...
    "Don't give holy things to depraved men. Don't give pearls to swine! They will trample the pearls and turn and attack you."

    He was right... I should follow more the Word... And this is why this is my last reply. I can't do nothing if you attack me like that. My original message was simple and good, and when I started to discuss it, it turned a mess!!

    And who is really the fanatic here? Me? Not really...

    Well... if you think that eyes can detect things other than matter... and you said in the fith quote:

    If you think that eyes can detect things other than matter... you really DON'T have a lot more understanding that me on that subject...! Everyone knows that eyes can ONLY detect matter... and actually, not even all the matter the eyes can detect... (I'm talking about atoms and energy)...

    I can't argument against beliefs...

    If you read carefully what I wrote, I said:

    If you pay attention, I said: "Matter is almost stoped energy!" and not : "Matter is almost stoped by energy." If you pay attention, you forget one little word called "by"

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    This word makes all the difference in this sentence!! I said that the matter is a low-type energy. This is what make possible the agregation of particles in the form of atoms, the low-energy of
    the particles!
    Imagine if photons, for example, or any high-energy particles would be possibly gather together to form atoms... Impossible! Because its high-energy won't let them...

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    Continuing... power and energy here means the same thing: The capacity of work. As the equation... J=... I don't remember...

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    I'm more theoretical...

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    Not very good in math... Sorry about the incovenient...

    In the last part of your quote... again, if you assume that God is Almighty, as the Christians says... His "power" (I'm talking about energy...) His energy must be high. And if His energy is hight, He can't appear physically as atoms can't agregate to form "something" physical! This leads to one of my first statements in this thread:

    This is the limit of matter. Anything beyond this limit can be considered matter. If you consider that something beyond this limit exists (than it comes the example of Vacuum creating particles), it's undetectable by physics. I know that you, as a Scientist Loves citations... here is one. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, physics is:

    As you can see, Physics works only with matter and with the observable universe. But we can have an evidence that God exists by seeing how He interacts with us. This is ultimetly proved with the particles coming from the Vacuum. And you can see it in the book "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra. You can see something about it in those sites:

    http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/filosofia/introtao.html
    http://fusionanomaly.net/fritjofcapra.html

    As you can see, I'm not alone in this endeavor. If you want, you can stay behind... but you still have time to accept new ideas... The proofs are coming...

    Beliefs... no arguments... I want to discuss the subject scientifically but you, like everyone, pushes the conversation to beliefs... Why are you still arguing about beliefs? I've never did it. Why do you do it? This thread is to discuss about a scientific explanation about God, not to discuss the religious implications.

    Good to see that you can detect them with your eyes...

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    With your second quote where you told that you can't detect matter with your eyes... I was starting to think that you are blind...

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    Again... what I'm trying to discuss here is the SCIENTIFIC implications about it. "God is Energy" is the Scientific explanation of "God exists". If you don't understand that, is simply because my first statement...

    was completely right. And again... I'm here talking about the Truth...

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    I surelly don't need to talk about that!! Anyone with good sense would say, after reading this post, that I'm right and who is making a "good showing" in this thread is me, and not you.

    Better you start to read a book "on the methods of debate and argumentation" than to continue to argument like that.

    Things that you said: I don't see. I can imagine the word "by". I argument against beliefs. I don't know physics (what are you doing here)... Did I forgot something...?

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    It doesn't matter... because you proved it all...

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    Another link... : http://www.askalana.com

    Blessings...

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    ,
    Nelson
     
  13. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're entirely wrong. The eye detects energy. Specifically, energy in the form of light. The human brain then translates the signals given to it by the eye in order to develop a three dimensional representation of the surrounding matter.

    Broken English aside, thats basically my whole point. You started this thread by espousing a belief as a proven fact. As you've demonstrated, certain forms of.. uh.. 'logic' are entirely unassailable because of their lack of basis in reality.

    Forgive me for attempting to cobble your English skills into something approaching coherency.

    Elementary, although I'm curious how you would include the entirety of High Energy Physics in this description. However, you still haven't explained how this fits in with your supposed god.

    Ok.. so here we are in the middle of a debate about proof, and with that statement alone, we find the following assumptions:

    a) There is a god
    b) That god is almighty
    c) His almighty-ness is somehow linked with energy
    d) That energy must be relatively 'high' compared to what we humans are used to
    e) He is constrained by the laws of contemporary physics despite being Almighty.

    What this adds up to is grandiose claims that rest on NOTHING. Assertions are made (again), and conclusions are reached (again), without relevent facts, evidence, or a logical chain connecting them. I thought I warned you about assuming what you were trying prove in my first two posts?

    See above for my response to this attempt at wit.

    Ahh. The truth with a capital T. Heh. Anyways, perhaps you are trying to discuss scientific implications, but you cannot successfully do so while ignoring the scientific method. Just because you say that 'god is energy' doesn't me he exists and he is.

    So evidently, good sense == matching your belief system precisely.

    Uh.. good comeback? I'm certain I've heard it somewhere before.

    Things I have said:
    1. I understand that the process of seeing is more involved than 2 pieces of matter. I understand that they have to interact with each other by some means. I understand the the means they use is called 'energy'.
    2. I can guess at the word "by" when I'm trying grasp the meaning of your broken english.
    3. I argue against beliefs that are touted as facts without evidence.
    4. I do know physics. In fact, I'd wager that the only 'physics' you know is from coffee table books written for the lay-person. This is demonstrated by your statement:
    Physics is math. Being a theoretical physicist doesn't mean that you do less math. It is commendable that you are willing to say 'What if..?'. What is not commendable is that you accept your theories without actually testing them.

    You are, of course, welcome to not reply. However, science, and scientists must rely on self- and peer scrutiny to prevent errors. If you cannot accept this, you have no place calling anything you do 'scientific'.

    Thanks,
    FyreStar
     
  14. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    One more thing..

    Oh, and I'm still waiting on your dissertation regarding the explanation of god through quantum gravity. I'd be awfully disappointed if you lied about that.
     
  15. Bebelina kospla.com Valued Senior Member

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    The truth...as long as we claim to know it, we will be very far from it.

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  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Hi TruthSeeker

    Quantum Physics is the study of the very small. Taking measurements at the smallest subatomic level affects the particles being studied and that means no accurate measurements can be made. The noted scientist Richard P Feynman wrote ‘I know for sure that no one understands quantum physics’.

    We have currently hit two new frontiers, one at the very small, and one at the very large, e.g. how many big bangs are there and how do they start. Interestingly the two extremes are linked together.

    As part of any proof you will need to establish the factual basis for all premises. If any single premise is invalid then the conclusion will also be invalid. In this case the term ‘God’ is undefined. The first premise is that a god exists since you begin with ‘God is’. But this is what you are trying to prove.

    No proof can have as one of its premises that which it is trying to prove. Your proof fails in the first two words.

    You proceed to state that ‘we can’t detect him’. This is a fully rational acceptance that the existence of a god is unknown since without any form of detection it is impossible to conclude that such a being exists.

    A baseless assertion again. You need to show the factual basis for this premise, but again this is what you are trying to prove.

    This is irrelevant to your argument, and is also baseless.

    Define life in this respect and your facts to support you.

    What do you mean by light? Are you referencing the speed of light or the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, or the whole spectrum? Please clarify.

    There are no answers here only questions.

    I’m very glad you added the smilie and that you also recognize that your statements are just a joke.

    Cris
     
  17. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    ...
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    truthseeker,

    Propaganda is the tactic that is used in a hopeless attempt to combat truth. And insults are used by the feeble minded when their inadequacies are revealed.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2002
  19. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    If you insult me, while I am trying to pass a message of compassion to you, I can't do nothing about it...

    Yours sincerely,
    Nelson
     
  20. Bambi itinerant smartass Registered Senior Member

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    309
    Excuse me while I laugh

    Wow TruthSeeker,

    I never realized until now that pseudoscientific drivel within confines of a religious propaganda can fit the definition of compassion. You've blown my mind! Thanks for so dramatically broadening my horizons.
     
  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    No Religious propaganda...

    It is not a religious propaganda. It is a tentative to pass a message of Love, Compassion and Self-awareness to the world. If you read my posts, you will see that I agree with other phylosophies other than Christianism such as Taoism and Zen-Buddhism, as they are based in the same principles of Love, Compassion and Self-awareness (and other virtues).
    You can follow them without a Religion. You can pick their phylosophies and apply them to your life without being involved with them. But have a Religion is good to have advices with other people and good to guide you in your life.

    Hope you understood now.

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  22. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    9,199
    Re: No Religious propaganda...

    TruthSeeker,

    My assertion of propaganda was leveled at your ‘depraved men’ quote. Another typical Christian propaganda line is the ‘only foolish men believe there is no god’. Propaganda is used in most wars and conflicts in an attempt to belittle and humiliate the opponents. Such techniques are usually used when the strength of the primary argument is either very weak or has failed completely. When you descend to such tactics rather than use reason then it is a sign you have lost or are losing. It is an indication of desperation.

    Your debating skills are still somewhat raw, and you have been probably indoctrinated to some extent by external influences, which means you are currently unable to clearly distinguish between a reasoned argument and propaganda statements, so for now please take my comments as instructional rather than as criticisms.

    Your message of Love and Compassion is fine, up to a point, and as you indicate there is no need to wrap the ideal in a religion. But you should also be aware that not everyone sees or needs these attributes in the same quantity as you imply they should. There are many people who do indeed depend on loving companionships and compassion as part of their daily lives. But there are many others who find such close ties and emotionalism as unpleasant and unnecessary. For many, being alone does not mean they feel lonely. Many enjoy and seek solitude and their own thoughts away from others.

    Your insistence, and that of others here, that love and compassion are the primary needs of humans is inaccurate and arrogant. The approach ignores the wide variation of human desires and lifestyles and attempts to impose an unsolicited ideal on everyone. The ideal might work well for you so go away and enjoy what you have found. But don’t try to insist or impose your ideas on others, or if you do then expect to have your head beaten in a few times.

    Try to respect the ideas and lifestyles of others. Variation has great value. The kind of all lovey-dovey world, that you are trying to impose will be found quite sickening to many people.

    I am sure many people will be comfortable in a fatherly style protective religious blanket; it has value for them. For many who value their independence and are able to think on their own then religions are obnoxious.

    The evangelical style of Christianity is for many a despicable tactic. So be prepared to back-off very fast when you meet or detect those indicators.

    Helpfully
    Cris
     
  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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