The star over Bethlehem

Discussion in 'Religion' started by timojin, Dec 28, 2016.

  1. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    2,576
    Were there?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Innocents

    "The massacre is reported only in the Gospel of Matthew (2:16) and other later Christian writings likely based on that gospel. The Roman Jewish historian Josephus does not mention it in his history, Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94 AD), which reports many of Herod's misdeeds, including murdering three of his own sons,[8] his mother-in-law (Antiquities 15:247–251; LCL 8:117–119), and his second wife (Antiquities 15:222–236; LCL 8:107–113)."
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I would be surprised if the event happened.
    Any attempt to suggest an explanation of a star comes from believing there was a star yet the star is no doubt a myth based on the three king birth of the Sun myth.

    Do you know when the first written account was made?
    Not within I life time I would suggest.
    Do you know when the New Testament was written?
    So long after the events who knows what really happened.

    Do you think that any account could be seen as reliable.

    Who knows what really happened with Herrod the only account is that in the bible which was written years after the alleged event.

    It is all too convenient how the birth of Jesus just happens to replace the three king star myth, and the birth is same as the birth of the Sun (solstice) even the death and resurrection comes from the astronomy.. The Sun reaches a point on the horizon where it "dies" and is there for three days before it starts back for Summer...think about it.

    And even today folk who don't look into the history and the astronomy think it is a mystery...no just made up stuff drawing upon astronomy.

    Believe what you wish but at least address the facts.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
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  5. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    # 1 Why should believe what you are saying As for me people who look into stars are a bunch storytellers
    # 2 Your truth for me is the one of a used car salesman
    # 3 My post # 32 should have told you that I am not sure the star will stand in one place for over and shine directly on one object, everyone would have noticed . so you are convinced by your partner on my positio,
    # 4 Why should I believe you that the story of Jesus is a ripoff, who are you and what experience do you have spiritual matters ?
    # 5 I don't know if you know more on ancient history then I , with your comments in the god Sun
    # 6 The truth is something relative to us , so you can keep your truth and I keep mine.
    # 7 I take your third paragraph , you are talking to me as an other preacher. but to me you are showing your ignorance in history.
    # 8 The ( astrologers ) modern astronomers are spreading their nonsense for ages , things that are not palpable , so they use big numbers . So people tend to believe them as we are debating
    the star in bethlehem.
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Blah, blah, blah blah


     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That is my point the ancients looked at the stars, the Sun and the Moon and made up stories such as the birth of Jesus, such as death and resurrection.
    You don't have to believe me however what I say is history you can find reliable commentary easily on the net if you look.
    That way you can see there is substance in what I suggest.
    I have not made this up and you ignore it because I expect it would be unthinkable that your faith has blinded you to historic fact.
    Attempting to insult me is a waste of time.
    It merely shows you have nothing of substance to offer as counter to the historical facts I offer.
    Tendering insults will erode your position and try as you may you can not upset me with insults.
    The truth is not hurt by insult.
    I do not understand what you mean.
    Who is my partner in your eye.
    My only partner is truth.
    I am not asking you to believe me.
    I suggested that you seek the truth yourself.
    I rate you as a very intelligent man and I merely rely upon my high opinion of you that you are more than capable of finding evidence for yourself in support of the matters I raise.
    If you want to turn your back I have no problem with that that is your choice but not to acknowledge what I lay before you is not a fair account of how Christianity evolved simply avoids the history.
    Do you not think it odd that Herod's supposed killings of the children were overlooked by history.
    What has my experience in spiritual matter have to do with pointing out history...history that you can find if you look.
    I find it interesting.
    In times where everyone was involved in agriculture the movements of the Sun, Moon and stars provided a calendar.
    In our times we have no reason to follow the seasons because we are not farmers but in ancient times seasons were important.

    The Sun, the Moon and stars were all seen as Gods.

    Think of Rome and the names of their Gods.. Planets.

    As I said the Egyptian priests / astronomers could tell the Nile would flood two weeks after observing the rise of Sirius.

    Powerful and useful stuff.

    Eventually the Kings would claim relationship with the God.(the Sun).look it is history if you want to know read it.

    There is even suggestion that Orion was used to lay out where pyramids were placed particularly referencing the stars known as the three kings.

    If you want to learn you need to read more than the bible.

    Of course. And there is no reason to change your faith but I think you would find it interesting to learn about where the birth death and resurrection came from and why Jesus had twelve followers it can be traced back to astronomy and farming.

    Well first let me apologise if you took it that I was talking down to you, Sincerely I do not mean to and say I respect you and from the little I know of you say I like you.

    I could not say I am not ignorant, no one can say that...I don't know what I don't know, but I read all I can and try to be informed.

    I know my unkind assessment of the New Testament must be upsetting for you and I am sorry but I can only express my findings which I first found difficult because Christianity is the foundation of how I live on a moral level.

    I believe the teachings even if not from Jesus have merit and I live an honest life free of hate etc so it is hard to live in a manner suggested by someone who you doubt ever lived or who words were not necessarily recorded correctly.

    But I think understanding how it all came to be is interesting.

    I think to debate something that is not reasonably established a waste of time but if you want a book that will sell well write about the star of Jesus, write about the flood of Noah etc great books or movies and great to make money.

    Same as UFOs there is s huge market.

    Thank you for taking the time to address my posts I can understand how confronting I must be to you and happily overlook any hint of insult and say you have conducted your presentation as a gentleman, good luck and fortune be with you.
    Alex
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    As was inferred in post 2, and post 4, the intentions of the thread initiator was less then honest and this has finally been shifted to where it originally should have been.
    Timojin in near all instances, always has some agenda other then science in mind.

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  10. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all. At any given time, any location on the Earth's surface is under one star or another. So if you want to say "Jesus was born under a star" feel free. (Heck, I was, too!)
     
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  11. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    1,998
    Here we go . Every body was born under a star as you are saying, We all are born under a star. The posted paper is saying a special event ( alignment ) and that could have a special configuration that made an impression on people at that time.
    How often we have such alignment as the author mentioned ? If you would be born in December they call it Capricorn , Well if you would be born during the alignment , you would remand you been born on a more special period. The alignment.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    11,674
    Or it could have been very clear that night and all the stars looked brighter - and so they followed one that looked very bright to them.
    I was born shortly after the Great Alignment of 1962. Most people were born during some sort of alignment.
     
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    If there was an alignment it would not really fit the biblical account.
    You may well need a comet which is possible.
    But even if we have I big star or comet that only gives rise to the superstitious ancients inventing a story to fit, seeing a star or comet does not have to be put down to am act of God.
    Wanting something to be true does not make it true.
    Again when did the account of the star get written down..the life the of Jesus plus half a century or on some accounts a century later.
    So this star story if real was recorded a minimum of 80 years later.
    Why did every astronomer on the planet fail to write something about this supposed amazing star.

    Why is there absolutely not record?

    I find it interesting that Christians will not address this period where stories were told and retold and then quote this or that from the new testament as if it were spoken only minutes earlier.

    How could all Jesus said survived in tact word for word...

    Why was it that his story was not written when he was born, or something written as he grew up and of course when he gave his sermons or performed his miracles.

    Not worthy of some writting ?

    We are talking of a time when both Hebrews and Romans recorded stuff. Heck the Romans recorded the details of little known gladiators, yet somehow as far as Jesus goes nothing.. his whole life nothing..his execution nothing..and if anything would have got the scribes scribbling it must be the death and resurrection ...but nothing.

    Was there not one follower capable of writing something down or able to pay a scribe to record something?

    Does that not get the alarm bells ringing?

    And on top nothing written for another 50 ,years or more.

    So I again ask how many years passed before the star event was recorded... 80? 100? or 130?

    Alex
     
  14. Seattle Valued Senior Member

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    1,872
    Jesus avoided the paparazzi and sold his book rights which weren't published until much later after several rewrites. Initially the Bible was to be a play but the producers and directors couldn't work things out and the work was given to a ghost writer who turned it into a book.

    The prequel came out next so they called it the "old" testament. They wanted to make it a trilogy but the third book didn't get good reviews so they sold the old and new testaments as a boxed set and it came out just in time for Christmas.
     
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  15. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    277
    In regards to the Jesus figure, my best guess at this moment would probably be on, or around, or shortly after 325 A.D. when the Roman emperor Constantine convened at the Council of Nicea where they sought to historicize the Jesus figure for social control.
     
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  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That would be extraordinary.
    Someone told me that selecting one religion with one God was done to tidy up the multiple holidays.
    Do you have anything in support of that notion.
    Alex
     
  17. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, actually I do.

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    Unfortunately I'm not at home on my computer at the moment. I'm posting from my iPhone. As soon as I get home I'll post supporting references.

    Edit: Wait, after rereading your post I might have misunderstood your question. Did you mean do I have any sources on my previous statement or on the "one god multiple religion" thing?
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    In the interest of establishing fact whatever you have.
    I was curious if you had heard of the reason to have one God but anything that can indicate when the story of Jesus was committed to writing.
    Any facts are good facts.
    Alex
     
  19. ForrestDean Registered Senior Member

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    Yeah I'll see if it's in the information I have when I get home.
     
  20. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    For your information Jesus is mentioned by Josephus a Jewish Roman historian writer It was around 40 AD
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks Timojin
    Alex
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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  23. Michael 345 Registered Senior Member

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