The Survival Of The Judeo/Christian Religion

I accidentally posted this in aliens & extraterrestrials earlier

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, so you may have already read my thoughts on the matter. For purposes of discussion, I am clumping the jews, christians and moslams into one group. We do all believe in the same god, just different messiahs.

I think it is interesting to note that christianity (in the form of judaism) has been around since the birth of the egyptians and assyrians, before the romans. A small band of poor, downtrodden, sometimes slaves, people have outlasted all of the great empires so far, and as far as I know, it is the longest surviving religion.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think there must be something to a religion for it to survive this long? From the begginings of civilization to the present...not to shabby

Any thoughts?

 

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It's worth noting that Jon Stewart, of the Daily Show, once recounted the shock he felt when his aunt told him why it was important to be proud of being Jewish: "But there are only thirteen-million of us left in the world, dear."

I have not read enough Hebrew history to determine a couple of critical answers in how I regard Judaism itself. I will also acknowledge the fact that Judaism seems to have survived with much of its tradition intact. Where there are shamanistic pagans who trace certain parts of their practice to 35,000 years ago (don't ask me how ... this one's beyond me), such a figure only seems to apply to slivers of the newer philosophy.

The Christian and Muslim parts of this tradition are what intrigue me. My very basic understanding of Islamic history is that much of the sectional infighting we hear about today goes back to the death of Muhammed.

But the relationship between the Christian church and various political institutions explains much of Christianity's staying power. I recall arguments between popes and kings regarding the appointment of bishops and whether the papacy owed the crown or the crown submitted to the pope. Territorial squabbles were turned to holy causes .... the Vatican had to settle a squabble between Portugal and Spain--the Line of Demarcation. Americans might be speaking Portuguese right now if that conference had ended differently.

When Kennedy was elected President of the United States, some complained that the Vatican now ran the country, by default of how Catholics were perceived to live--the connection of the Church's political and spiritual power.

Nonetheless, it would seem that such a thing as the Christian church could not possibly survive so long without a spiritual base. Judiasm ... history shows it simply survives.

thanx,
Tiassa

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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

 

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Didn't the bible prophesize that Israel would become a nation again? If I'm not mistaken that happened didn't it? From what I read there were a few things that seemed to call for the divine.

"""""But the relationship between the Christian church and various political institutions explains much of Christianity's staying power.""""""

What about before the church came into power? What about the survival of the bible? Christians faced a lot of persecution. They still face persecution today but more so in the past.

I think Christianity's survival calls for the divine. What about its rapid spread?

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

 

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Corp Hudson,
Christianity has not been around since the Egyptians in the form of Judaism.
Jews and Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the son of god. Christians do not believe they can be 'saved' through Judaism or Islam.

Belief...the mother of all illussions. Once you acquire immovable beliefs you become fodder for the wolves (sheep).

Baaaa baaa !

 

PS. Hinduism and Buddhism have been around for thousands of years as well.

-Is it just me, or does anyone else think there must be something to a religion for it to survive this long? From the begginings of civilization to the present...not too(sic) shabby-

All the major religions have some spiritual truths to offer, but the truths are lost in human cultural traditions and political dogma. This is why it is so important to sift through them carefully.
Find the truths, scrap the religion, follow your heart and logic, because the fundamental purpose of all religions is to gain control of the people.

Be especially careful of dogma that is racist ie. 'gods chosen people'. Sexist, 'Eve was made from Adams spare rib',
'women stay silent in the church', 'women who menstruate are unclean and you should keep well away from them'. Nationalist, 'Kings and rulers are divine and placed by god and you must always obey them' etc etc.
The shit just doesn't stop. So be sure to carry some toilet paper when studying these things.

 

Ilgwamh--

You are correct that Christianity suffered much in its early years. This heritage places certain aspects of the Church's evolution into irony ... the Church opposed literacy, staged territorial wars to combat pagan relgions, invented "encomienda", and, in its Protestant forms has committed a number of oppressions as well. It isn't so much that other religions are free of these moments of human depravity, but the point of Christianity, I thought, was to evolve beyond that kind of relationship between the institution and its people. And given that yes, there were atrocities committed against the Church in its fledgling years, the list of blunders the Church sponsored, seemingly to secure its own position, bely the true potential of what the philosophy offers.

Charlemange aside, much of the European Christian history, until the arrival of the printing press, demonstrates a trend of reserving literacy to the priestly classes. All you have to do is teach someone from birth that failure to comply will result in horrible tortures ... if this is the standard of knowledge one lives amid, how are the people to shake it off?

I would suggest that if you were to list the divine events which escorted the churches to their present status, at least one difficulty would arise: there will be a large number of events critical to Church sociopolitical evolution which will demand a certain regard--whether this aspect was not divine, as such, or whether God authorized and sponsored ludicrous atrocity.

Tiassa

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"Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)

 

Tab,

Your interpretations of Christianity are astounding, and oh so dead wrong. I still need to respond to the sexist (hilarious) comments that you've been making, and will when I have the time to fully explain. For now, let's just suffice it to say that you do not have the whole story, and yes I am a woman. And just to note everyone, there was no Christianity before the Christ?????????? Hello? He changed EVERYTHING.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

 

Christianity is just a variation of judaism..just as judaism was changed by moses, it was changed by Jesus of Nazareth. Muslims, Christians, and Jews believe in the same god. Christianity evolved out of judiasm, Jesus was a devout jew.

Tabladirrim: you are taking passages out of context, without proper explanation.

 

Corp Hudson,
the Jewish and Muslim religions have variations on 'the law'.
Christians have a faith in a personal relationship with the only saviour, Jesus who is god!
This is heresy to the Jews and Muslims and is still punishable by death in some quarters.
Christians will tell you that Islam is the true antichrist and that the Jews sealed their fate when they condemned their saviour to death.
They may share some common roots but the fruits are very very different indeed.And not interchangeable.

What have I quoted out of context that would change its meaning? pray tell me.

 

Lets face it...Jews, Christians, and Muslims are not that different. We all believe in thse same god, the differences are how we beilieve god presents himself. The differences are philosophically no more different then different sects of buddhism, or different beliefs of Wicca.

'gods chosen people'. -This only applied when the jews were so persecuted they had to believe this to survive. In those days, everyone else WERE heathens (maybe not everyone, but there were some really bad guys)

'Eve was made from Adams spare rib'-This is a sexist quote, but the chapter before it says man and woman were created simoultaneously. The creations stories are not true, just stories. The secons story, were Adams rib formed women, was almost certainly created as a way of oppressing women.


'women stay silent in the church'
-I believe you are using Pauls ideas here..There were women rabbis in biblical times, so you must be. Paul said some pretty offensive anti-women things, but he also said a lot about equal rights. He was a bit schizophrenic about women. Although he believe in equal rights among the genders, he was severely limited by the culture of the time.
'women who menstruate are unclean and you should keep well away from them'-Well, in 2000b.c., this was a sanitary concern. All of the laws pertaining to what is/is not kosher relate to sanitary matter, and this is one of them. Maybe it was not an actual health risk, but it was definetly percieved as one then. Just as meat had to be eaten in a certain way, blood needed governing laws as well. This law was not to degrade women. but to promote cleanliness.
'Kings and rulers are divine and placed by god and you must always obey them' -Please give me a chapter:verse, I do not remember this in the bible... It has definetly been used as a predominant theme by hypocritical, power-crazed kings and church leaders though.

 

tab'

I am a Christian and this is the first time that I have ever heard such statements.

Also, I have to agree w/Corp. Hudson about Paul, not the schizophrenic part but, that when Paul was organizing the first church, there was division among those in the congregation and Paul had to deal with many questions concerning "conformity" within the church. The people NEEDED rules. At first, his answers would appeal to the sense of the propriety that that the majority WANTED... That which contemporary Greek society would consider "natural"... HOWEVER, he also concludes that if anyone is inclined not to conform to such matters, that they should not be turned away from the church, because these are not God's customs, nor the customs of the church. It was simply what the majority wanted at the time, based on their culture of the time. We've come a long way... well, you know the rest of the story.

We have ALL always been spiritually equal in Christ, tab'.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 16, 1999).]

 

Truestory,
that was the general vibe going around the church I was at 10 years ago.

Corp Hudson,
I'll answer you fully when i've got more time, it's 1.37 am over here.

 

Corp Hudson,
I think you try hard but you are very misinformed on these points.

your quote:
-Lets face it...Jews, Christians, and Muslims are not that different. We all believe in thse same god, the differences are how we beilieve god presents himself. The differences are philosophically no more different then different sects of buddhism, or different beliefs of Wicca.-

**Wrong! the differences philosophically may not be that great between different sects of the same religion, ie, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox etc. Although they were great enough to cause great wars and suffering.
But that's as far as it goes.
The only thing these three religions share are beliefs in parts of the old testament. Even their monotheism isn't entirely clear, because the Jews have god and David, the Muslims have Allah and Mohammed and the Christians have god, Jesus and the holy spirit!**

your quote:
-'gods chosen people'. -This only applied when the jews were so persecuted they had to believe this to survive. In those days, everyone else WERE heathens (maybe not everyone, but there were some really bad guys)-

**Wrong! (unless you mean 'heathen' simply as in somebody who doesn't believe in the Judeo/Christian god, which would obviously have made every other race 'heathen')everyone else at that time was either on a par with the Jews or well ahead of them. For example, the great civilizations, religions and philosophy of ancient Greece, Egypt, Assyria, India, China the list goes on.
I'm sure all of those civilizations suffered 'really bad guys' who were as bad or worse than the Jewish Rabbi's.

your quote:
-'Eve was made from Adams spare rib'-This is a sexist quote, but the chapter before it says man and woman were created simoultaneously. The creations stories are not true, just stories. The secons story, were Adams rib formed women, was almost certainly created as a way of oppressing women.-

**Wrong! Genesis 2: 21-23, makes it very clear that Eve was formed from Adams rib. The previous verse in Genesis 1: 27-28 which you refer to, does not disprove the rib story.**

your quote:
-'women stay silent in the church'
-I believe you are using Pauls ideas here..There were women rabbis in biblical times, so you must be. Paul said some pretty offensive anti-women things, but he also said a lot about equal rights. He was a bit schizophrenic about women. Although he believe in equal rights among the genders, he was severely limited by the culture of the time.-

**Wrong, you cannot pick and choose things to accept and things not to accept out of the bible, otherwise you end up with a cult religion. Paul said it as you admit. I do not recall reading about female Rabbi's in the old testament. In fact if you read Leviticus 21: 1-24 it makes it clear that women couldn't be priests.**

your quote:
**'women who menstruate are unclean and you should keep well away from them'-Well, in 2000b.c., this was a sanitary concern. All of the laws pertaining to what is/is not kosher relate to sanitary matter, and this is one of them. Maybe it was not an actual health risk, but it was definetly percieved as one then. Just as meat had to be eaten in a certain way, blood needed governing laws as well. This law was not to degrade women. but to promote cleanliness.-

**Wrong, the laws pertaining to women were always harsher. For example, according to Leviticus 12:1-6 If a woman gave birth to a son she remained ceremoniously unclean for 41 days. If she gave birth to a daughter she remained ceremoniously unclean for 80 days!
Is that sexist or is that sexist?**

your quote:
-'Kings and rulers are divine and placed by god and you must always obey them' -Please give me a chapter:verse, I do not remember this in the bible... It has definetly been used as a predominant theme by hypocritical, power-crazed kings and church leaders-

** Well, you said it Corp. I can't find the chapter right now but believe me it's in there**


[This message has been edited by tablariddim (edited December 17, 1999).]

 

I will from now on refer to the Judeo/Christian belief system. That better? Saying the Christians, Jews, and Muslims are not essentially sects of a religion is like saying the 3 egyptian kingdoms didnt practice the same religion.

The other caananite civilizations WERE terrible peoples. They regularly practiced infant sacrifice, as well as adult sacrifice. They raped each other top worship their god. This doesnt sound like heathens to you?

About Eve being created out of Adams rib...that story is refuted in Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, plants were created on one day, then animals on one day, then man and woman simeoultaneously on one day. In Genesis 2, man was created, then plants, then animals all on the same day. Adam was given enough time to name all living things, and become bored. To help Adam alleviate this boredom, god created Eve. So, yes, the order of events and the periods of time in these two stories make them incompatible.

I am not picking and choosing things to believe in the bible. Paul said some sexist things, and he said some revolutionary equal rights things. I am trying to consider them both, and come upon an explanation as to why he would have said them both.

Much of the bible could be seen as sexist, I have to agree with you. That was the societal norm at the time, and we cannot expect the ancient jews to be much different. There were some pretty terrible laws in the books of moses..I am surprised you have not used those equating women to slaves yet. But, that doesnt mean that the jews and christians today must be sexist. Jews have reformed their views, and most do not strictly follow 4000 year old laws. Ditto with christians, plus the teachings of jesus elevate women to the same level as men.

I probably do not sound that coherent, but try and you will be able to decipher what I am trying to say

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Truestory & Tab ....

(Tab) "Christians will tell you that Islam is the true antichrist and that the Jews sealed their fate when they condemned their saviour to death."

(Truestory) "I am a Christian and this is the first time that I have ever heard such statements."

I just wanted to comment that the ideas Tab is referring to have been present for centuries. If you read some of the written history from the period surrounding the Crusades, there's a tradition of invective aimed from the Pope at the Muslims. "Son of a Dog", comes to mind, as does "child of Satan's whore".

The bit about the Jews is something I've never read in text, but I'm well familiar with. It seems to be an idea that evolved sometime after the end of feudalism, I think. Jews were, in those times, forbidden to own property. The idea of condemning the savior and sealing their fate seems to be a justification that rang well with the common Christian during those periods. The idea has resurfaced throughout Europe during the intervening years. Heck, it's even present in the U.S. Take a trip to Idaho and you'll hear it plenty.

thanx,
Tiassa

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"Religion isn't dead either. The AntiChrist will have access to computers, television, radio, and compact disc. If he walks among us already, the chances are that he has a walkman. I just hope it's not Christ himself, disillusioned after two thousand years in a cosmic sitting room full of magazines and cheeseplants, turned malignant and rotting in despair at the way his message has been perverted." (Robyn Hitchcock, 11/1987)

 

well, i'm not a religious kid, but i do go to sunday school every sunday, and i went to a christian school untilseventh grade.... but now... i do not think that that is the right religion, nor is any ohter religeon. if its what you beleive, and u basically fowlow it, i dont beleive that there is one write ofr wrong religion, except jew's, those dirty bastards... j/k.. i was just kidding.
but chrisianity is not the oldest religion, and it wasnt what it is today.. teh oldest religion is prob, buddism, but newest, besides those colts, is prob christianity. and musslem.chrisianity started when christ died... 0 ad or 0 bc. so christianity has only been around for 2 thousand years in 10 days.. so happey birthday santa, and happy birthday chrisianity! but still, no matter waht your beileifs are, if you follow them, basically, and are a all around good person, you'll go to heaven, or if you like some people we know... eghem oj, then you might just burn in hell with satan!!!
so ahve a merry christmas,happy chanica (how ever you spell it) a happy new year and millenium, no matter what these damn computers might bring us... and good night

 

tiassa,

Thanks for sharing that information.

I would like to point out, so that it is not lost on any of us, that such ideas did not come from Jesus Christ. Such would most likely be ideas of counterfeits or those who have lost focus... the misguided.

In the words of Jesus Christ:

"You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews. But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him. God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship Spirit and truth." John 4:22-24

Peace be with you.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 22, 1999).]

 

Hey y'all, come on over, let's have a Christmas drink n' ting n' ting

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TAB, why do you contradict yourself? First, you talk about how we should stay away from religion, and then you're rebuking Corp.Hudson quoting the bible! I just don't get it.

Tiassa, you're very well read; I'm impressed. However, these poor misguided souls (Roman Christians; especially the Pope) just didn't get it. It says in Romans 2:25-29 that "Being a Jew is worth something if you obey God's laws; but if you don't, then you are no better off than the heathen. And if the heathen obey God's laws, won't God give them all the rights he planned to give the Jews? For you are not real Jews just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the Jewish initiation ceremony of circumcision. No, a real Jew is anyone whose heart is right with God. For God is not looking for those who cut their bodies in actual body circumcision, but he is looking for those with changed hearts and minds. Whoever has that kind of change in his life will get his praise from God, even if not from you.

And in Romans 9:6-8 states, "Well then, has God failed to fulfill his promises to the Jews? No! [For these promises are only to those who are truly Jews.] And not everyone born into a Jewish family is truly a Jew! Just the fact that they come from Abraham doesn't make them truly Abraham's children. For the Scriptures say that the promises apply only to Abraham's son Isaac and Isaac's descendants, though Abraham had other children too. This means that not all of Abraham's children are children of God, but only those who believe the promise of salvation which he made to Abraham."

In Romans 11:17-18 says, "But some of these branches from Abraham's tree, some of the Jews, have been broken off. And you Gentiles who were branches from, we might say, a wild olive tree, were grafted in. So now you too receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in God's rich nourishment of his own special olive tree. But you must be careful not to brag about being put in to replace the branches that were broken off. Remember that you are improtant only because you are now a part of God's tree; you are just a branch, not a root." And in vs. 22-24 it says, "Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is very hard on those who disobey, but very good to you if you continue to love and trust him. But if you don't, you too will be cut off. On the other hand, if the Jews leave their unbelief behind them and come back to God, God will graft them back into the tree again. He has the power to do it."

Oh yeah, the reason Christmas is celebrated on the 25th of December is because it's in celebration of the victory over the pagan religion worshipping Mithra, which the emporer Constantine tried to set up as the one major religion in Rome so as to unify Rome somehow. Well, Christianity won and even Constantine himself was eventually converted.

And one more thing before I retire for the night, remember a guy who posted on here by the name of Dork? Well guess what? I couldn't keep away. I changed my name because it's not very fitting, even though you may disagree with that. And I don't twist logic like the Devil (whom you don't even believe in Tiassa). We are literally made from earth. Think about it.

Merry Christmas!

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There is no such thing as subjective truth.

[This message has been edited by bah (edited December 22, 1999).]

 

bah,

Welcome!

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It's nice to meet you. Merry Christmas and God Bless you friend!!!!!

I can love you all because God first loved me,
ISDAMan