The true question of religion and god

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by FyreStar, Aug 25, 1999.

  1. Mock Registered Member

    Messages:
    16
    Plato

    It is very difficult to read a 2000 year old religious text without any preconcieved ideas, and that is how I read the Bible for most of my life. Like just another religous text. Looking for contradictions, looking for reasons not to believe, looking for similarities with ancient myths so that I could classify this Book as just another mythology with a deluge/flood as an act of the Gods to punish man for his sins. This is how I used to read the Bible.
    As I tried to explain in my earlier post, I then read It again " at face value " trying not to let negative thoughts enter into my reading. What happened was that I was succesful, and the true meaning that was there all the time, jumped out at me. This I think was Divine intervention. There is a very simple message of salvation in the Bible
    that will not become apparent if you over intellectualise your reading. You have to give up nothing, not pay a cent, pass no tests, pay no financial dues ... to enter into God`s Kingdom. The way is through your heart. Simply accept. And I found a calm. I cannot explain this calm in any other way than God`s personal intervention. The fact that I found this calm during a period of personal crisis is neither here nor there. The fact is I found it. Nobody was more suprised than me. I was the greatest cynic. How can we explain this tangible peace and calm without resorting to the spiritual. All I am trying to say is that I never expected in my wildest dreams ( and I have been through many trying times before ) that I would Believe. Moreover I have yet to find anything in the realms of science, nature, biology or any other discipline that does not live comfortably alongside a belief in Jesus Christ, and the Bible. In fact in my opinion it just gets better.
     
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  3. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Boris,

    If you know anyone that is addicted to servanthood and has an unstoppable drive to continue to serve despite the fact that 95% of people despise and ridicule them, please, send them my way. I need an employee. When your $250 watch is busted, for best results, you either go to the people that made it or you go to the people that the makers designates for repair. How much more valuable is your life? Religion is one of the many false repair shops that people like because they get to set the rules. Turning to God and His ways is quite different. He's the real thing. You, I would endeavor to say, are the type of person that would, in this example, attempt to fix the watch on your own with no training from the manufacturer or whom they authorize. Your words. "Life can only be hard to bear when one acquires tunnel vision and loses the grand picture. How could you ever get depressed about your life if you kept in mind the enormity and complexity of the universe, and the resultant insignificance of all the things that bother you?" One of the most common overstatements of a man's position is one wherein he makes himself out to be in control. Weather by your actions or the power of your thought, that is what you are stating. For the child of God, peace and joy can be had because of the knowledge that our Father IS in control, that our Father Does have a plan to use all things for our good ( even those things that hurt for a time ), and that, over all, His Glory will stand high and none else can stand beside Him and steel any of that Glory. When you trust in yourself, you trust in a man that cant even see what's in his shoe or around the corner. On top of that, even if he does peek around the corner, he looses sight of where he's at. He never even has a clue of what's going on behind him. I agree with you that mental escape is a way that men do go. Trusting in your own obviously limited powers qualifies perfectly. Does that help you understand?

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  5. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Boris,

    I wasn't emotionally attached. That's the whole point, genius. That's the whole rationality for doing it in the first place, you can't get emotionally attached to a "fetus", but you can to a baby. Like there's a difference? Well, at the time, I thought that there was a difference, and I was wrong. Believe me, I had no warm fuzzy thoughts about the pregnancy, no little booties flying around in my head. I had had an affair with a college freshman and cheated on a fiance that I didn't even want to be with, and I didn't know which one was the father. Ok, so now explain the pain.

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
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  7. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Hay there Flash,

    Remember how I told you that I like to boil things down to get to the
    meat of the matter? Well, that's just what we are going to do,
    together, here Flash. You've apparently posted some pretty important
    questions to you. I'll look for them. First, we need to get some
    things straight. It's time to face facts. No matter what those
    questions are, they are nothing more than a retaining wall holding
    back mountain of pain and hurt. No matter how many bricks in the wall
    I crumble, you would only replace them. The prudent thing, we both
    know, is to take on that mountain of hurt and pain you have got pent
    up inside of you. It's all up to you Flash. If you choose to hold on
    to it, it will kill you. If you let it go, as dangerous as that may
    seem, it will release the burden and pressure that's weighing you
    down. Who hurt you Flash? How did this whole thing start? You know
    what I mean. Who caused you to adopt the idea that it's better not to
    trust? I know you said that you only pretended to be a Christian,
    meaning, you never really trusted Jesus Christ. Is that true or is
    that just a statement after the fact to help hold yourself together?
    This is an important point to discuss.

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">John 17:8-11 ( Jesus Speaking )</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">8 For I have given unto them the words which thou
    gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I
    came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but
    for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and
    I am glorified in them.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">11 And now I am no more in the world, but these
    are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine
    own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.</FONT>

    When you taught in the Church and lead the drama team, whose power
    were you trusting in to get the job done? Was it yours or was it Christ's?

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Galatians 6:7-9</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for
    whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the
    flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the
    Spirit reap life everlasting.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in
    due season we shall reap, if we faint not.</FONT>

    What's your relationship with these people now? Where have you gone
    to ask for help about your own personal feelings? Is there anyone
    that you share your inner most self with? And what of your family,...
    particularly the relationship you had with your mother,... with your
    father,... when you were a child? Do you feel that you were loved
    unconditionally as a child? Did your church family love you
    unconditionally? Can you say that in your life you have ever known
    what it is to be loved? If, &quot;YES&quot;, what has become of that
    love? Most importantly, how do you love?

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Luke 6:31-33 ( Jesus Speaking )</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do
    ye also to them likewise.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank
    have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you,
    what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.</FONT>

    &lt;&lt;&lt; I am being truthful as I can be... in all of that..I
    NEVER ONCE had a sign or communication with god!!!!!! I know you say
    on his own time...but how f'n long does it take??????????????? You'd
    think somewhere in there he would say something!!!!! &gt;&gt;&gt;


    Congratulations!!! You are not a schizophrenic. God does talk to His
    children through the Holy Spirit. However, I can tell you for a fact
    that if I ever heard an audible voice that was not proceeded by
    Gabriel's horn and followed by being changed in the twinkle of an
    eye, I'd run to the nearest Christian psychologist I could get to. He
    has said all that He has to say, in words, in the Bible. People who
    claim to have gotten a new word are either crazy or lying.

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">I John 2:7</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but
    an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old
    commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.</FONT>

    and Jesus said in <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Matthew 24:24</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">For there shall arise false Christs, and false
    prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if
    it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.</FONT>

    If you want something tangible, as a Christian, you must first trust
    Christ. Then, and only then, will you be able to physically
    experience the glory of serving others. A person's natural bent is to
    serve one's self. That's why I asked you about whose power you were
    relying on when you were active in the church. Now, read that verse
    from Galations again. Did you think that, perhaps, if you did a
    little more or you did a little better that you would finally hear
    from God? The good things done as a child of God are not done to keep
    some defined level of Holyness. That reduces the gift of God down to
    works. The good things done, are, in fact, done out of love and
    expression of what God has done in the child. Anything else is an
    adulteration of God's Plan. I'm left to wonder how you were
    discipled. I would guess you to be a fast self learner. I'm also that
    way. I know what it's like to want all the information now, or, even
    better, ten minutes ago! Again, I have to stress that you deal with
    God on His terms and His terms only. What you presumed to be a lack
    of relationship with Him may have been just that. Had you truly
    surrendered your life to Christ? If, &quot;YES&quot;, were you daily
    yielding to Him? Were you faithfully trusting in Him and doing in His
    name knowing that He has shown in His Word that He would deliver? God
    never calls anyone to follow Him blindly. Look at what Jesus said in <FONT COLOR="BLUE">John
    14:10-12
    </FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and
    the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of
    myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the
    Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
    believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater
    works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.</FONT>

    Now, as far as the, &quot;greater works&quot;, aspect is concerned. I
    can't tell you weather He meant that ( greater = bigger and better )
    or ( greater = added to or more numerous ) or both. I'm just happy to
    have my name written in the Lambs Book Of Life and the right to call
    upon, talk to, and serve my Father any time. Therefore, I can go
    anywhere and do anything in the name of Jesus Christ and have no fear
    or doubts about what the worlds reaction may be.

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Colossians 2:</FONT><FONT COLOR="BLUE">2</FONT><FONT COLOR="BLUE">-9</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit
    together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of
    understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of
    the Father, and of Christ;</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you
    with enticing words.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I
    with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the
    stedfastness of your faith in Christ.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the
    Lord, so walk ye in him:</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in
    the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy
    and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of
    the world, and not after Christ.</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the
    Godhead bodily.</FONT>

    Flash, you have become like the example Jesus gave about the seed
    that tried to spring up on the rocks. It doesn't have to be that way.

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Luke 8:13</FONT>

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">13 They on the rock are they, which, when they
    hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a
    while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.</FONT>

    Christ can re-plant you at any time. He can give you a Christian home
    and family. He can restore the years that the locusts have eaten
    away. In fact, if you turn to Him, that is, repent, all that is a
    promise from God. He has never let you down. You have never let Him
    hold you up. Trust Him. He knows what He is doing.

    With Love and Prayers,

    ISDAMan

    P.S. - Alcohol will solve nothing for you.

    ------------------------------------------ All Verses Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible -- King James Version
    Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc.

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    Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
     
  8. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    229
    ISDAMan -
    I appreciate your response. There is usually so much hostility or defensiveness in these discussions that it is impossible to gain understanding of other views. I understand what you are telling me, but the fundamental reason that I cannot act upon it is that I do not seem to share your awareness of a higher power. I practice complete self-honesty; I won't delude myself into thinking that things are perfect by ignoring a touchy subject or telling myself something I *know* to be false. Your statement, "It requires that you trust in what you clearly know to be there, yet, have absolutely no proof of." is a perfect definition of faith, but I simply don't know of anything "there". Also, I'm not clear on your analogy to sheep.. do you mean that we are all being led, and if so, then are we being led by god?

    FyreStar
     
  9. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    229
    Interested Party -
    To clarify; I have never subscribed to any way of worship, nor have I had belief in any type of god. In this way am I athiestic. However, I cannot say that there isn't such a figure because I see no way to tell the difference between a non-interfering presence and no presence at all. If I seem to convey a certitude that my beliefs are founded on something more solid and factual than theists, its because to my viewpoint, I do. Nobody can point to a definable or observable god and ascribe their beliefs to it. That is why the concept of faith is required for religion. On the other hand, what I was taught, and later questioned and refined on my own actually had causes within the realm of human existance. Hope this helps,
    FyreStar
     
  10. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    229
    Mock -
    My reservations involving religion have nothing to do with other people, firstly. I know people of many faiths and of no faith which are morally suspect, and to me that suggests a problem with humans, not beliefs. When people tell me such as you did about what they gained from religion, I examine my life and see whether or not I have those things. I know I am not alone in life; I have friends, family, and I know that there are enough decent people in the world that I continue to meet those whose differences I can rejoice in. In regards to disasters.. If I can do something to avoid them, I will; if not, there is little sense in worrying about that which I cannot change, so I accept it and move on. Also, neither would I "drown my sorrows in drink". Aside from the repulsion I feel towards voluntarily giving up control over my actions, it is much more efficient and healthy that I work them out and move past them, wouldn't you agree? As to the bible, I think that in most cases, it does an adequate job of presenting morality to its readers, but I don't see what makes it literal truth. And that is the point of my original question. In any case, I thank you for your response, and look forward to others.

    FyreStar
     
  11. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    ISDAMan,
    I am sorry to have mislead you. There
    is not any pent up pain or hurt. I am a
    normal person...just like you.
    People can only let others hurt them if they allow it.
    I do not have any trust issues.
    I do not have a relationship with the church
    I attended because I do not live in that state any longer. So there is no need.
    I do not have any problems with my parents...
    if you got that because of what I wrote about
    sometimes parents can be assholes ..I was
    referring to the kids at the church I attended...that's all.
    I appreciate your concern...I really do.
    I am being sincere. Trust me though..there
    is not any need. Again, I am fine and normal. I just differ on the christian
    beliefs ect... that is all.
    Sincerely,
    Flash
     
  12. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    ISDAMan:

    That is not at all what I am stating. Inasmuch as my personal choices go, I do indeed imagine that I am the one in control. However, with respect to the rest of the world around me, I harbour no illusions. Indeed, I have no problem with the possibility that there is no plan to our existence, and I don't see why you have such a problem. We are sentient beings, and it is up to us to find a purpose. I enjoy that perspective much more than that of a marionnette in the hands of an all-powerful controller. But it all is only so much philosophical nonsense.

    What I am saying is that the assumption of God explains nothing, and improves nothing. The world out there is as much out of our control as it would be either way.

    What I was talking about is that people tend to assign too much significance to the things that bother them in life. And while an imaginary friend by the name of God is one way to obtain comfort, another is simply to realize how insignificant our troubles are.

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    I am; therefore I think.
     
  13. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Flash,

    Have you looked back at your last post? Do you recall the e-mail you sent me when you were drunk? Anyone can see the overwhelming stress in your posts. I find the change in your style of post astonishing. It's almost as if you've been shocked. Yes, I do realize that you have been interacting with Lori in a friendly way for months here. I also hate to see someone, especially a believer, subject to harassment. I'm kind of the big brother type. On top of that I have little patience. That's something that is a constant effort with me. I've always been quick to do battle. I didn't mention your parents because of your quote. I mentioned your parents because of clues you left behind. It's just the same way I deduced the answer to that question we discussed in e-mail. Someone can't be fine and normal and living a life they believe to be false or have no trust in. You could take the. "I'm out of it now", stance, but, that won't justify you either. You expressed clear ongoing distress because of your past actions. That means that you are not fine. You can hold it in you want to. It's just going to rot your liver, your pancreas, your eyes, and your soul. Flash, if no one else in this world will love you enough to tell you this, I will. You have a problem! It's out of your control. Get help.

    With Love and Prayers,

    ISDAMan

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    Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
     
  14. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Boris,

    First, you mixed your quote and mine. Second, you just affirmed what I told you. That is exactly what you were saying. You just had no idea of it. Now, dealing with the statement, "I have no problem with the possibility that there is no plan to our existence", I'd have to say that even for an atheist / agnostic, that's a mighty tall stretch. You spend your whole life making the purpose your own and whatever you want it to be and now you say that there may be no purpose? You sound confused. You need to pick a side. You affirm my assessment of you by further stating,"We are sentient beings, and it is up to us to find a purpose."

    Let me point you to one of my past posts to JMitch:

    You have a choice as weather or not to take another breath. You can do it or you can drown in the tub or do any number of things. None of these things was given so you could kill yourself. Yet, by your own choice, you can. Even more, you only have access to the things God first provided you. You can create no new matter with which to halt your next breath.

    This existence belongs to God. The interaction He allows us to have through our own choices is often confused for power. For Satan, it is the same.


    To expound on this so that you may fully understand, hear this. God is in control while at the same time you do have a choice. Sounds like a paradox. I know. I'll break it down for you. You're a self-empowered kind of person. I'm sure you enjoy driving yourself in your own car. Wouldn't you agree? We all like the freedom to go our own way. On top of that, we crave a personal style and a certain sense of self. Well, if you want all this, you have to buy a car. No matter how many choices of makes and models, customizations and amplifications, or even built from the ground up designs can be picked from or conceived, you are bound by certain laws. First, there are laws that govern the intended use of the vehicle. There's laws that govern performance and handling, safety, and even public application because of where you live. You have all these choices. You are full of freedoms. Yet, you have no power to extend ,add to, or subtract from any of these laws except the laws of application made by man. I'd love to see a VW Bug pulling a 10,000lb tandem rig. You are making the same old common mistake of viewing your freedom to choose and create applications for what is pre-existing with actual power and control. So, in short, you do have a choice, but, none of them are fully your own. Try applying your theories to life in crossing the highway. I'd love to see the control you wield on the world around you then. To you I'd say, "the assumption that there is no God explains nothing, and improves nothing." You are left even more in the dark and at the will of others. Of course, by your model of existence, everyone else must have just as much of that 100% control that you do. In your model, 100% times any number always equals 100%. In the true model, there's only 1 with 100%. Lastly, you said, "What I was talking about is that people tend to assign too much significance to the things that bother them in life. And while an imaginary friend by the name of God is one way to obtain comfort, another is simply to realize how insignificant our troubles are." Now, just what might be your benchmark of insignificance? With everyone having their own 100% to control, that leaves the benchmark up to every man. And if it's some other man's benchmark that, because you don't score as highly as he does on some kind of test, that he can take all that is yours, including your wife and child, what problem should you have with it? After all, it's insignificant. You see, when you follow God's way, the way He gave us in His Word, not what's popular at the time or happens to seem right, there is a hard line drawn in the sand. There is right and wrong! There is justice! Your denial of that fact is irrelevant. You will still be convicted.

    With Love and Prayers,
    ISDAMan

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    Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.



    [This message has been edited by ISDAMan (edited August 29, 1999).]
     
  15. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    ISDAMan:

    Ok, I give up. Where's the part where I denied the existence of right, wrong, or justice?

    100% control? Of myself, or of the cars on a highway? I claimed I have full control of my choices. I never claimed I have full control of my life. If that's too hard to understand for you, please ask before you go and write another page full of nonsense.

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    I am; therefore I think.
     
  16. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Boris,

    You seem to be confused about the points you are making. You said,"100% control? Of myself, or of the cars on a highway? I claimed I have full control of my choices. I never claimed I have full control of my life." What is your life if it's not comprised of your choices? Your choices are made to yield given actions and outcomes. Therefore, you attest that you have control over the things around you. If your life cannot be defined by your actions, then, you are not alive. Again, I say, pick a side and stick to it. By your own words, "Inasmuch as my personal choices go, I do indeed imagine that I am the one in control. However, with respect to the rest of the world around me, I harbour no illusions.", you are clearly trying to walk on both sides of the street. You want control when it benefits you and the lack of it when the burden is too great to bear. What you are professing is the true tunnel vision and escape from reality.

    Quote:
    Ok, I give up. Where's the part where I denied the existence of right, wrong, or justice?


    Please, read my last post again and then clue me in on who sets the benchmark and who enforces it. I'd like to see your definition of this.

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    Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
     
  17. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    ISDAMan:

    You really do have a knack for failing to understand the obvious!

    My life, and everybody else's, is composed of personal choices and individual behavior (which are under individual control), and external factors which are beyond control. I make a choice of what I write next. I do not make a choice of when I get hit by some car on the street. It's really that simple. Some things are under control, and others are not. And I can't believe I am explaining such obvious things to an adult.

    You managed to completely miss that point as well. I was not talking about setting limits, rules, benchmarks, or guidelines. What I am saying is this: suppose somebody ambushes you in a dark alley, beats the crap out of you, steals everything you have, spits on you and rubs your face into the dirt, and then breaks your neck so that you are paralyzed for the rest of your life. Pretty heavy stuff, right? Now, imagine yourself looking back at that incident from the center of galaxy M-31 100,000 years from now. Gee, one little animal out of 6 billion of his kind has been totally screwed over on some no-name planet in just another galaxy God knows how long ago. Whoopty do. At any moment in your life, you may get into a world of pain. However, it will allways be true that: 1) compared to some people before you, you are really pretty well off, 2) on the big scale of things, it don't mean jack, 3) it's only a big deal if you are willing to make it so. Jesus said to always turn the other cheek. And it is easy to see why from my perspective. It doesn't mean that one should never fight back, or that there is no right and wrong. It does mean, however, that one who viewes existence through a wide-angle lens would never get overwhelmed to the point of helplessness and listlessness by absolutely anything.

    I don't know much about Buddhism, but I believe what I say should roughly parallel their beliefs. Perhaps that would give you a little context for comprehending my words.

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    I am; therefore I think.
     
  18. Mock Registered Member

    Messages:
    16
    Fyrestar

    Hi, I don`t think it is possible to prove the "literal truth" ( verbatim ) of the Bible. Or necessary. Although there is much archaeological evidence to support the Mosiac authorship and the historical reliability of the Pentateuch.

    What I was trying to explain in my last post was how it became a "literal" ( real ) truth for me. The Bible became a Spiritual truth for me, and in this way it is a "literal" truth in my experience.

    I am trying to show you through my own experience that the Bible can become a real, Truth through one`s own Spiritual awakening.

    My best historical argument in support of the Bible as a "literal truth" would be in showing It`s uniqueness in the integrity of It`s message, compared to any other historical work or documents.

    Here is a brief summary. The Bible is a Book that was written over a 1500 year timespan, over 40 generations, by over 40 authors from peasants to philosophers. It was written in a variety of settings, during times of peace and war, on three continents and in three languages. ( Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek )
    It`s subject matter includes hundreds of controversial subjects, which could create oposing opinions when mentioned or discussed.
    Yet from Genesis to Revelation there is harmony and continuity on these subjects. There is one unfolding story - "God`s redemption of man"
    From the time the Message was first written down to our present age, the Bible has been, translated into hundreds of languages, edited and printed millions and millions of times, yet the integrity of it`s message remains unchanged. This is unknown in any other book, known to man. This must constitute Divine inspiration and intervention.

    If you are interested I can forward details of further reading on the above matter.

    In Christ.
     
  19. bedlanam Guest

    "one who viewes existence through a wide-angle lens would never get
    overwhelmed to the point of helplessness and listlessness by absolutely
    anything."

    does that include the acknowledgement of the soul ? or does this narrow the lens a bit ?
     
  20. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    It involves the acknowledgement of everything that is actually observable. It does not involve 'acknowledgement' of fantasies, although you are free to have them as much as you wish (just as long as they do not contradict reality, in which case you have some hard choices down the line. (The evolution vs. creation debates come vividly to mind...))

    ------------------
    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited August 30, 1999).]
     
  21. ISDAMan Thank You Jesus! Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    378
    Boris,

    QUOTE:
    My life, and everybody else's, is composed of personal choices and individual behavior (which are under individual control), and external factors which are beyond control.


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    It's good to see that you are picking a side on this.

    QUOTE:
     I was not talking about setting limits, rules, benchmarks, or guidelines.


    They've got to be there. It's fundamental to any philosophy. I asked you to explain yours to me. Could you please do so?

    QUOTE:
    suppose somebody ambushes you in a dark alley, beats the crap out of you, steals everything you have, spits on you and rubs your face into the dirt, and then breaks your neck so that you are paralyzed for the rest of your life. Pretty heavy stuff, right? Now, imagine yourself looking back at that incident from the center of galaxy M-31 100,000 years from now. Gee, one little animal out of 6 billion of his kind has been totally screwed over on some no-name planet in just another galaxy God knows how long ago. Whoopty do. At any moment in your life, you may get into a world of pain. However, it will allways be true that: 1) compared to some people before you, you are really pretty well off,


    Good Point.

    2) on the big scale of things, it don't mean jack, 3) it's only a big deal if you are willing to make it so.

    Bad point. 1) If you're busy getting your butt kicked, what do you care about the possible perspective of someone 100,000 years from now. Anyone holding to this has a serious problem with what is actual reality! I'm sure that even any secular psychologist would tell you this. Protecting yourself via disassociation is a far cry from being protected by association with the Living God of all Creation. Sure, it's possible that neither one may step in to stop the fury. However, only one of them can make the promise to use it for your good. Moreover, you don't seem to be practicing this belief system you profess. In your past few posts, you were sure to pass what seem to be insults my way. Does that happen when things don't get to you or under your skin? Your words,"You really do have a knack for failing to understand the obvious!" and "If that's too hard to understand for you, please ask before you go and write another page full of nonsense." Now, I know that, at times, I can be a bit too straight to the point. If ever I made you to feel as though I was insulting you and you in turn felt the need to retaliate; I apologize. 2) God has been known to deal very seriously with those that are the source of evil to others. If He has a problem with it; so do I. Don't forget how God dealt with those that picked off the stragglers of the Israelites as they traveled through the wilderness. Also, Jesus had some pretty strong language for this type of thing in <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Matthew 18: 6-11

    6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
    7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
    8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
    10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
    11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.</FONT>

    QUOTE:
    Jesus said to always turn the other cheek. And it is easy to see why from my perspective. It doesn't mean that one should never fight back, or that there is no right and wrong. It does mean, however, that one who viewes existence through a wide-angle lens would never get overwhelmed to the point of helplessness and listlessness by absolutely anything.


    Not so. Look at <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Luke 6: 27-35

    27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
    28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
    29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the onecheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
    30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
    31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
    32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
    33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
    34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
    35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.</FONT>

    The statement Jesus made about turning the other cheek was clearly based on Love. It was not based on some idea that you or anything really doesn't matter in the big picture. Jesus gave this example in order to show how far the expression of real Love will go.

    Jesus points out that the strength to avoid worry or helplessness and listlessness is found through this kind of realization below.

    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Matthew 6: 25-30
    25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
    26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
    27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
    28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
    29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
    30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?</FONT>

    We are instructed to worry about nothing and to pray about everything. This is where the strength of the child of God comes from. Through your examples, you place the strength back on the person for being able to overlook such a heated encounter. The Bible makes it clear that man has no such power of his own to tap into. Disassociation only makes for a good front. However, it is important to still keep perspective of what is happening today.
    <FONT COLOR="BLUE">Matthew 6:34
    34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.</FONT> or in today's English,... <FONT COLOR="BLUE"> Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.(New King James Version)</FONT>
    If it didn't matter and was not to be minded because in relation to something greater it was insignificant, Jesus would never have called it trouble. God takes account of even every hair on our heads. He deals with us on a personal level. If what happens to us is important enough for Him to be involved, there's no question about 100,000 years from now. It's important.
    ---------------------------------------------

    All Verses Not Marked Excerpted from The Complete Multimedia Bible -- King James Version
    Copyright (c) 1994 Compton's NewMedia, Inc.

    Peace, Love, and Prayers,
    ISDAMan

    ------------------
    Feel free to contact me privately at isda@gte.net . I'm a Christian Web Developer. I run Apostle Creed Online.
     
  22. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,052
    ISDAMan:

    I was not discussing Christianity's claims in the post you critiqued, so much as I was proposing an alternative outlook, this time based on plain reality. I don't care what the Bible says about human capacity to cope without God or prayer; I claim the opposite, and indeed I not only claim it but practice it as well. And it works. And I believe it can work for others. And I believe that religion does far more harm than good. And I believe we are all better off without it.

    The point is, that one should go on with life, and fight for ones values, and defend against harm, and ultimately nevertheless try to live in peace and happiness -- but one should never give up, because nothing in life can ever be significant enough to warrant surrender. (i.e., one can always die later -- so why not live another day, and live it to its fullest, while you still can?)

    ------------------
    I am; therefore I think.

    [This message has been edited by Boris (edited August 30, 1999).]
     
  23. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    ISDAMan,
    How the heck do you get from my past posts
    ANYTHING about my parents??????
    Second, You have just arrived here..how is
    it you THINK you know soooo bloody much about
    me????????
    I was being polite in my last post to you..
    I have NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO F'N PROBLEM
    WHATSOEVER!!!!!!!!!
    I do not know where you come off with that..
    the only thing I know is because I am not
    one of those f'n blind sheep that just follow
    and say.."oh yeah, Jesus..he seems like the
    answer" Come on... you do not really expect
    everyone to believe that stuff... and it
    seems to me that you are the one with the
    problem because of those of us oppose your
    views. Why is that??????? Cannot people
    see things different?????
    You do not know me...therefore, how the hell
    can you sit there and judge me????????
     

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