The Trump Presidency

Discussion in 'Politics' started by joepistole, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. Vociferous Registered Member

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    301
    A federal judge dismissed a lawsuit Thursday alleging that President Trump violated the Constitution’s emoluments clause because his hotels and restaurants do business with foreign governments while he is in office.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...011510-e697-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html

    That was for lack of legal standing, but the emoluments clause has never been tested in court.
    Without precedence, I guess your crystal ball tells you how that would turn out?
    What visible collusion? Having the authority over foreign policy and wanting some diplomatic options?
    Would you rather go to war or have Russian more motivated to hack and interfere in US politics?
    "members of President Trump’s campaign" are not the president himself.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It's never been as flagrantly violated.
    Observation, not prediction, is involved.
    We can't impeach a President without going to war? Seems odd.
    Hence the clever diplomacy of Comey's response. Technically true, it gave Trump no room for a self defense argument. But Trump fired him anyway, because that's how he rolls - he's been working the wrong side of the law for decades. He'll fire Mueller too, if he can get away with it.
     
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  5. Vociferous Registered Member

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    But you think you can predict how the courts would rule?
    Without precedent, what are you observing?
    Straw man. Nothing like that was said.
    Technically true is true.
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Nope. Depends on the case, if any is ever filed.
    The physical realities - read the law, read the record of deals, compare.
    Nothing other was said. Some meaning seems to have been implied - best guess.
    And clever. But Comey got fired anyway - Trump knows when the cops are closing in. He's been working in the shade his entire life.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  8. Vociferous Registered Member

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    If you're saying it's illegal, you are predicting the outcome of unprecedented court rulings.
    Is there case law about the business expected under regular operation?
    Bad guess.
    That can happen when you fail to address the preceding context:
    "What visible collusion? Having the authority over foreign policy and wanting some diplomatic options?"​
    Comey purportedly got fired for not admitting what he latter did to Congress. That there was no investigation of the president.
     
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Was Trump in charge/responsible for his campaign or not?
    Answer: Him boasting about Yes...he was.

    I close my case ... your honor!
     
  10. Vociferous Registered Member

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    Does any leader know everything he delegates others to do?
    Or is not knowing the whole point of delegating tasks?
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    define delegates?
    Are you suggesting he delegated Flyn and his son to do as they did? (hee hee)
    He did try to obstruct by coaching his son didn't he?

    Is he responsible for his campaign or not?
     
  12. Vociferous Registered Member

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    301
    del·e·gate
    entrust (a task or responsibility) to another person, typically one who is less senior than oneself.

    Are you saying he micromanaged his campaign, by assigning every single task undertaken?
    Are you saying no one in his campaign was capable of independent action?
    Are you saying any leader is responsible for the unknown illegal actions of his employees?
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    17,657
    seriously...
    no... unless...
    He states on more than one occasion that he takes full responsibility for his election win. (and all that entails)

    Can we not take the POTUS on his word?
     
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,963
    No, I'm not.
    The law applies to elected official operation.
    Seems spot on.
    So who "purported" that nonsense, and why would anyone believe them?
     
  15. Vociferous Registered Member

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    301
    Really? Is an election win every single action every campaign member took? None of their actions could be superfluous?
    Of course the president lies. Happens all the time.
    Okay. Just noise. Oo, oo.
    Never tested or enforced.
    Straw man.
    Because it happened to be true, by Comey's own admission.
    But you can imagine any number of boogeymen.
     
  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,963
    But written in plain English, so we can read what it says.
    No. Comey made no statement about why he was fired, and would not have known any such thing anyway.

    Meanwhile: The scene where the FBI was already investigating two of Trump's top five campaign officials for their Russian deals before he even hired them, at least two of his three oldest children also involved in his campaign for their Russian connections, a half dozen Russians and Ukrainians with ties to Trump's business dealings in Russia and/or the same banks Trump and his associates are tied to along with odd connections to his campaign, several people with Russian connections who rent physical space in the same buildings Trump is using for campaign planning and operations, and meetings held with selections of all these people in buildings Trump owns and is present in at the time,

    but not including Trump himself in any of these investigations,

    is an amazing scene of slapstick incompetence on the part of the FBI.

    Total fuckup and incompetent halfwit is not Comey's reputation.

    You might also notice that Trump's firing of Comey obstructed that non-Trump investigation, and Comey's unwillingness to announce its boundaries or limit it in advance lwould not be legal justification for firing him - the opposite, in fact.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  17. Vociferous Registered Member

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    301
    Yes we can.
    No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatsoever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.

    e·mol·u·ment
    a salary, fee, or profit from employment or office.​

    Do his businesses profit from his "employment or office"?
    Seems he's actually lost some business due to that.
    Trump's personal wealth fell $600 million on Forbes 2017 ranking of the 400 richest people in the world, dropping 92 spots to #248. The magazine cited a tough New York real estate market, a costly presidential campaign, and declining visitors at several of his golf properties.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/trump-s-presidency-bad-business-his-own-n809886
    You can imagine whatever you like.

    So Comey was right to reopen the investigation on Hillary only, what, two or three weeks before the election?
    No incompetence there?
     
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Reopening, as he did under pressure, wasn't the problem.
    Neither was incompetent investigation, at any level let alone that necessary to have investigated Trump's entire family and campaign staff but ignored Trump himself.
    Yes.
    Or a tough New York real estate market, or hurricane weather.

    Anyway, net is irrelevant. He has done some business with specifically foreign State sources, and profited thereby - particularly at Mar A Lago and the New York tower - and that is illegal.
    We also note that 70% of the real estate purchases from his holdings since his candidacy have been anonymous - shell company purchases, etc. That usually indicates money laundering, tax evasion, etc, and one common source would be officials of corrupt governments, such as Putin's.
    We won't know Trump's true net worth, or the changes in it from foreign contributions, until we see his tax returns. At least one person associated with Trump has recently been found to have deceived Forbes magazine about his wealth, and Trump of course has lied about everything else of material import concerning his person and circumstances.
     
  19. Vociferous Registered Member

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    Says you.
    Says you.
    Have you got around to demonstrating illegality yet?
    Just your say so? Okay.
     
  20. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    March 30, 2017: “I explained that we had briefed the leadership of Congress on exactly which individuals we were investigating and that we had told those Congressional leaders that we were not personally investigating President Trump. I reminded him I had previously told him that. He repeatedly told me, ‘We need to get that fact out.’ (I did not tell the President that the FBI and the Department of Justice had been reluctant to make public statements that we did not have an open case on President Trump for a number of reasons, most importantly because it would create a duty to correct, should that change.)”

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/6/7/15758728/trump-comey-under-investigation-russia


    What Comey essentially told Congress is that while Trump isn’t presently under investigation, the scope and nature of the ongoing investigation could alter that status, and it apparently has.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    You should probably offer something more than a pretense of stupidity.

    Do you have an actual argument, or do you just ask questions as if you have no idea what is going on?

    Trust me, this routine isn't original. To wit:

    You do have a burden of making sense. That manner of fallacy does not make sense.

    The business can lose money; did he take a paycheck? Therein lies one of the simple faults of your ill-considered pretense. Because, you know, it's not like executives don't take paychecks when the business itself is struggling.

    You should probably do something more than make up questions reflecting particular ignorance.

    Actually having an argument shouldn't be so difficult.
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    24,963
    By your standards, sure. And that wasn't even the issue.
    Replying to you, that's overkill.
     
  23. Vociferous Registered Member

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    301
    Has it? Has the FBI or DOJ told the public they are investigating the president?

    I learn most by asking questions. There is no pretense when learning the opinions of others.
    Should I just assume their opinions and straw man their arguments instead? That doesn't seem right.

    I've made my argument. That the emoluments clause has never been enforced or tested in the courts. So far, everyone seems to agree with that. So I would be lying if I claimed that I knew how any such charges would turn out. Illegal only being defined by a final outcome in court.
    And I'm questioning how others somehow seem to know the outcome without any legal precedent. They seem to know the president broke the law, even though we have no precedent to tell us how the emoluments clause would be interpreted by the courts.

     

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