Discussion in 'World Events' started by Mr.Spock, Jun 2, 2010.
Except that Israelis do not check their weapons at the checkpoints of Gaza
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No they don't but this flotilla isn't about Israeli guns its about aid isn't it?
given at least nine are dead with Israeli bullets in them I'd say Israeli guns are apart of it.
All this for some cement? Please. I doubt the ship had any kind of real aid what so ever that could actually make any difference for the Palestinians, and since the whole purpose was to raise attention towards the Gaza blockade, the "humanitarian" aid was more symbolic rather than real help.
Heh. The evidence for the cold weapons was ment to show you that the passengers arranged the whole plot or else why would they keep slingshots and gas masks on the boat?
btw I don't think you would like the idea of getting hit with metal robs - those can be deadly, especially when used by brutal savages oh I mean peace activists.
So the passengers admit that at first there was no use of live ammunition.
ROFL Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ! Basically, everyone who ever played Paintball can tell you that, I myself got shot from close range. I'm still here!
Which are used by police during riots? I'm amazed.
No shit. Let's beat a soldier with metal poles and chairs, stab him and see what happens.
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I just found this opinion article which I found interesting:
Two views on the Israeli flotilla raid
Action was justified
BY ROSS MACKENZIE, MCCLATCHY-TRIBUNE JUNE 4, 2010 1:04 AM
If you were running Israel, what would you have done? About what?
About the flotilla of "peace activists" organized by a Turkish "philanthropic" and "humanitarian" entity closely tied to jihadist terror groups such as al-Qaida. The flotilla set out to provoke an incident by running the blockade of Gaza imposed in 2007.
Well, how about just lifting the blockade?
Egypt and Israel put the blockade in place following the takeover of Gaza by Hamas -- an Iranian-backed terrorist bunch dedicated to wiping out Israel. To lift the blockade would effectively sanction the rearming of Hamas, meaning more Hamas assaults on Israel.
So why not blow up the ships while still in their ports of origin, as Israel did in 1988 -- with no loss of life? Or why not board them farther out to sea as Israel did in 2006, check them out for contraband, and -- if finding none -- let them proceed?
No good explanation. The Israelis did board this time but by commandos rappelling from helos rather than by troops boarding from warships. In the latest incident the "peaceniks" on one ship pummeled the boarding commandos, causing an international incident in which just about everyone is blasting Israel.
Nothing new in that. Israel's behaviour is consistently unconscionable.
Not only that. Consider this -- by Ronen Bergman, a senior military and political analyst for the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth. Seeing in the incident a "new degree of fatigue in Israeli governing circles," Bergman writes: "The leadership of the country has given up what it has concluded is ultimately a Sisyphean attempt to accommodate world opinion. Isolation is no longer a threat to be fought, their thinking seems to go, because Israel is terminally isolated. What remains is to concentrate exclusively on what is best for Israel's survival, shedding any regard for the opinion of others."
It is difficult not to sympathize with Israeli siege fatigue. On practically every level, the country has been under siege since its creation 62 years ago after the Holocaust. This was a set-up. Israel did ask the flotilla with its 10,000 tons of cargo to divert to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where the cargo could be examined and true humanitarian aid then could be transshipped to Gaza. The flotilla declined, and the helo-boarding went badly.
The Israelis should have known it would.
Perhaps so. Still, the provocateurs shouldn't go home to parades -- and by their actions shouldn't win a lifting of the blockade.
But what about the flotilla incident's damage to peace talks and the ultimate creation of a Palestinian state? This is just another chapter in the too-long catalogue of Israeli insensitivity to Palestinian aspiration -- you know, like the building of more Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem.
If the Palestinians truly want peace and a Palestinian state, they and their Arab/Muslim enablers could recognize Israel's existence and forswear violence against it -- two things most refuse to do. Instead, they pledge further war to regain lands lost in their past Israeli wars. Iran's Ahmadinejad puts it this way: "I must announce that the Zionist [Israeli] regime -- with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion, and betrayal -- is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene."
But Palestine belongs to the Palestinians. And Israel is isolating the Palestinians in Gaza -- starving them, cutting them off from the world.
Wrong again, on all counts. Palestinian lands (the West Bank -- Israel calls them Judea and Samaria) fell to the Israelis in wars waged by Arabs and Muslims. (Israel, by the way, has been building settlements in East Jerusalem for years, with at least the acquiescence of every U.S. administration until the current one.) The Palestinians know what concessions they must make to get those lands back peacefully. Israel ships into Gaza 15,000 tons of food and medical supplies weekly, and allows the transmission of electricity to Gaza. When Egypt opened its border with Gaza a day after the flotilla incident, Hamas intercepted thousands of Gaza residents massing at the border -- clamouring to get out.
You have all the answers, don't you?
Hardly. Yet what so dismays is the lack of understanding for Israel, the nearly global lack of sympathy. Does that lack of sympathy derive from ignorance? Perhaps. Or perhaps it derives from a conscious determination not to understand, born of a deep-running anti-Semitism.
But a siege mentality can make it easy to do things that outrage the international community -- like board peacenik flotillas and bomb developing nuclear facilities in Iraq, Syria, and Iran. Isn't world opinion important?
Not particularly. Sometimes, doing what you need to do goes badly, as in the case of the flotilla -- especially against forces planning to make it go badly. And sometimes doing what you need to do goes well, as with the 1981 Israeli bombing of the Osirak nuclear facility in Iraq and the 2007 Israeli bombing of a nuclear facility near Aleppo in Syria. When it works, world opinion sighs in relief and says a quiet "thank-you."
Still, can't a siege mentality move a country to do dubious things?
Yes, of course. It also can move a country to do necessary things. If we felt properly besieged by the prospect of nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorist proxies of nuclearized regimes (Israel is besieged by at least half-a-dozen such proxy groups), maybe we would be moved to do the necessary thing about an insistently nuclearizing Iran
Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/views Israeli flotilla raid/3110259/story.html#ixzz0psmMkYhT
Israel and egypt blockade gaza, which as not stopped rocket attacks dispite ever more harsh contraband requirements, all it has done is make israel look bad! Israel needs to remove it self as much as possible for interacting with gaza. First this would allow gaza and the west bank to separate, dividing the problem and increasing the possibility that at least one side will become benign to Israel. Second this would put Israel in the right on the PR war, when ever Gaza launches rockets Israel demonstrate their suffering under Gaza siege of Israel, of course the Israelis don't think of them selves and their property as expendable like their enemies do, but in the long run you can't play the victim if your the one in power. In the long run being the unarguable victims would give Israel the right to return fire on Gaza causing the Gaza many times more casualties then the Israelis, the Gaza will learn that to survive and prosper they got to stop launching rockets at Israel, at present their meager existence make martyrdom look very appealing, but give them hope and happiness and then take it away in very brief burst of artillery fire with ever rocket launch, and the people of gaza would soon be hanging anyone that launches rockets.
Bottom line: If the Flotilla passengers were so righteous then they wouldn't have to lie about not attacking the soldiers with metal rods and stabbing them with knives.
Good point Electric though I think the Israelis are more worried about Hamas legitimizing itself without changing their agenda. But your perspective on what Israel should do is good suggestion.
The gaza elected Hamas its legitimate! They should have left it be at that and let hamas dam the gazians by their own actions. Hamas would be forced to change it tune after the standard of living started increasing the people started to feel good about life and get acquaint with not controlling the land Israel now exist on, they will suddenly have to consider living the good life verse dieing in a futile gesture to try to get land back, and I bet they will choose the good life once the have it.
Yes the election is legitimate I wasn't arguing that it wasn't, its legal but Hamas for many countries is still recognize it as a terrorist org and not a legitimate government. I was thinking that they would change their agenda and legitimize themselves so that they could negotiate with Israel (a nation that also considers Hamas a terrorist org). I have been arguing that the IRA turned itself from a militia into a political unit when they renounced violence and showed good faith by turning all of the arsenal over. Suddenly the doors to No. 10 Downing street opened up and Gerry Adams was walking through it. We could say he 'arrived'.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! But seriously Israel would have to deal with them if they simply changed their agenda, change their stance.
Of course you are correct. You know it, they know it and I know it. Problem is, they cant get over hating Jews, so they will never do something that is against their nature.
What can be done, full siege on Gaza for 3 years had not been working in removing them from power.
Israel should change their agenda for them by let them run Gaza, once the people keep coming to them demanding to stop rocketing gaza and to stop launching rockets from schools, mosque, etc, hamas will be forced to pacify its self.
The Palestinians chose HAMAS. As far as im concern they are stuck with them. And dont get it wrong, HAMAS are killing Palestinians and oppressing them because they are radical Muslims. I still hear about Palestinians actually saying they want us back. I think there was such a petition somewhere.
Exactly just leave hamas to its own devices, at best the gazains will overthrow hamas for you, at worse the gazains will pacify hamas, its a win win, just leave gaza alone toe develop as it will naturally, the people will eventual chose prosperity over hate.
The Navy Marmara - "Go back to Auschwitz":
original link - audio is in english.
No; and nor do terrorists operating from Gaza. OT, I know, but still.
That's funny. The IDF had released audio recordings of the warnings it gave to the flotilla and the response. At no time did they ever mention what you just have. How strange it is that this recording comes to light after so many days.. after we have seen and heard the recordings of the original conversation between the IDF and the ships.. Spin doctor much? I mean, you could make yourself useful. Aren't there some batteries you could be removing from wheelchairs before sending it through to Gaza?
You believe those audio and video recordings now?
Not strange just stupidity. Like sending troops with paint balls.
they should have sent troops in with even less, would have gave Israel and advantage in the PR war, but again Israel does not value its people as expendable martyrs like its enemies do.
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