Discussion in 'Alternative Theories' started by nebel, Jan 14, 2022.
Nebel and river in a discussion; the blind leading the confused.
Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.
I shows class to help the handicapped. give us a diagram on the zero velocity contact of a cycloid. for example, as you did on "gravity"
Tell people fantasies and claiming these fantasies are real is not helping anyone.
To mathematicians , time is fundamental . But not to the physical Universe . To the Universe time is irrelevant . Time has no physical qualities .
wrong, you are speaking only for yourself, certainly not for the universe. despite your opinion, the universe, at least the conscious of us, are having a great time, -- existing, moving forward into the future. time is highly valued, always was.
of course, only reality is real. the numbers that we measure about nature are. when these data show certain patterns, we can deduce relationships from that.
just trying to point out connections. similarities. based on that. in turn that can be helpful, thought provoking.
To Us , not the Universe . To the Universe movement , movements , of the physical is the only thing that matters , in the end . You can't time empty space .
You do not have to "time", measure empty space, it is already exist in "time" the first dimension. Without time, even empty space would not exist.
There is no such thing as empty space btw. even before the Big Beginning, there was timespace, energytime.
About movement, at the cusp, contact point of the cycloid, there is no movement. zero velocity contact with the road, even with the moment of time, the first of all the roads.
I am not so sure you can put it that way. The universe has no awareness or valuation of time, especially of the future. Time does not yet exist in the future. It is created as the present unfolds and the past becomes measurable as time of duration.
What is required by universal chronological evolution is mathematical "permission", for a variety of functions.
If the mathematics of a function do not permit an event to occur, the event will not, cannot occur and a timeline for that event does not develop. This is how patterns emerge from chaos. It is the self-ordering according to mathematical permissisions and restrictions.
Obviously the universe itself exists in a permittive condition (nothingness) that allows it to expand as fast as its own mathematics allow. This is why right after the beginning the universe was able to expand at FTL. The universe itself had not yet acquired its own permissions and restrictions. It was in a state of unrestricted chaos.
As the universe cooled, the spacetime acquired its own mathematical permissions and restrictions on the chronological unfolding of events. That is when the first elements formed in a mathematical chronology, from the simplest to the more complex pattern organizations (table of elements) and continuing as we speak.
And everything acquires its own as well as collective timelines (worldline).
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_line
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
right, it is here, on our planet No.1, proven so far, with life, that the universe has become aware of itself. nevertheless, the universe prior to our arrival was highly dependant of time.
Time was needed to have uncreatable energy in existence that must have been available to make matter in 3D space, at the Big beginning
Whether this energy in virtuality had a cycloid motion to it, would be pure speculation, or a Dirac sea for that matter? with rolling waves?
The non-human universe shows us an amazing in-build function of time, dependance on time and timing. In my neighbourhood among the palms, other life comes into action now, in anticipation of more energy from the sun, budding flowers, blossoms to produce fruit that could produce trees and food and more fruit in the future that is sure to come, as the universe moves into it. but
that future time is there, whether the universe, or individual parts arrive there or not. time and energy are eternal. intriguing is, how
our movement through time resembles a cycloid motion, being at the same time forward moving but making an instant zero velocity contact. picking up stuff or energy in the process, to carry it forward into the future, for future use, and consequences.
Perhaps that more light now coming in summer could be considered the the ultimate energy cycloid, a rotating wave, in permanent zero contact with time, never aging.
First, that human intelligence makes the universe intelligent is a category error. The Universe does not need to be intelligent to spawn local indivudual intelligence. Intelligence is emergent result of specific mathematical patterns. Would you say that the universe is intelligent because we are developing AI? More locally, would you say that the earth is intelligent because it spawned humans?
No, all that is required for emergent intelligence is a mathematically permittive condition.
A condition of "nothing" is not intelligent, it is permittive of "everything", including intelligence! All that is required is a dynamical causality, such as a cyclical function. Evolutionary processes via natural selection will do the rest over time.
We know that in reality the universe has dynamic properties. This can be explained with several scenarios.
No it only shows a measurement of duration. The time you are measuring is the emergent duration of events as the universe unfolds. There was no time before universal time emerged along with the physical existence of the universe. Of course that time is now inherent in our spacetime.
You are right that living possess a sense of duration but that is a cellular memory stored in the cells cytoskeletons. It is called the circadian rhythm. Single celled organism already have memory of regularly repeating durations. On earth it is 24 hr day.
I disagree that future time exists. The future has no need of time, it only requires mathematical permission to continue.
Yes, and that is because almost everything seems to acquire a cyclical trajectory. Just look at the wave function.
It may seem that way to humans, but it isn't exempt from aging. It is just that these numbers are almost impossible to calculate.
Finally, the universe is not intelligent because humans are intelligent. Human intelligence is merely a local expression of universal potential. The universe itself is a dynamical mathematical object.
We could make an argument that dynamical mathematical functions represent a form of quasi-intelligence. But it is not "alive", only dynamical. (See; Causal Dynamical Triangulation, CDT)
Life is an emergent result of abiogenesis, not the other way around.
The requirement of cellularity for abiogenesis
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
No pre-existing intelligence in this evolutionary process. However it is mathematically ordered.
I almost agree with all of that.
Change the phrase "to mathematicians, time is a measurement of duration" and you have it right.
The most enduring "non thing" is energy. try to destroy it, create it. Since it endured forever, it had time to it in. time is as enduring as energy. "Time" is a more encompassing term then duration. Time is the first fundamental dimension that duration can be measured in. Energy and time predated our present local iteration of it, in our universe. There always was time. It did not have to wait for us to appear. of course now is spacetime, tea time. hopefully peacetime again.
Before our spacetime was energytime.
energytime is now coexisting with spacetime, as you said. or: spacetime is existing within, sharing energytime. call it mattertime.
rotating energy, revolving matter, perhaps in a cycloid motion, in zero contact with time, all the time.
I can accept that , and go even further:
as the universe expands into the future, it encompasses, contains more time, shows greater endurance. has longer distances separated by "Time" for light, all information to travel through and
IT might even pick up energy that is still out there in the future, that we all move into. dark energy anyone?
the best picker upper is a rolling wheel with its cycloid zero road contact. ask your tire repair shop.
No, before the beginning there was no time. There was no duration of anything. That came after the beginning.
Time is the emergent 4th dimension. Hence the equation spacetime = 3D + t
No, just shows greater duration. Endurance is subject to entropy. Nothing endures forever.
Endurance of time (worldline) is dependent on the duration of existence or change.
that is a bleak future, without time to exist in. we can assume and some serious thinkers have posited so, that there was a pre-big bang, possibly Energy-only condition. Our beginning was only a small point in time, of an infinitely extending timespace or energytime. That BB point has now turned into a volume, but that does not mean that the vast eternal time with energy only has shrunk into that expanding volume.
We are still moving into that always available futuretime, and with all the precisely timed rotation going on, probably well described in a cycloid motion.
very well put. timelines in spacetime since the Beginning event.
what has not been addressed is the necessity , as touched on by Penrose, Dirac, Kraus and others, that there had to be a pre -Beginning, pre- time/world line in spacetime
era, where/when only energy in some ur-form existed, making its nest in time, the first dimension eternal..
No, you misunderstand. Reality only needs mathematical permission to continue. It will create time as it does so.
Time does not, cannot exist independent of space. Time needs the duration of something other than itself to measure.
IMO, in a quantum universe, there can be no measurement unless a quantum event has occurred. In the future no quantum event has yet occurred. After the past and before the future only a quantum "now" is real.
When we look at a distant star, the light of that star may have travelled a billion years and that star no longer exists as we see it today, if it still exists at all.
I understand what you are saying in context of "causality".
OTOH the concept of an eternal causality is just as unsupportable in my mind.
Any causality had to be an emergent phenomenon or it would have manifested long before 13.8 billion years ago.
If we take current physics and reduce it to its smallest causal values we already end up with non-physical fundamental values, such as fields.
Is field a matter?
So we really are talking about symmetry and/or balance. Is it possible that nothing cannot exist in and of itself?
Just as there is no time unless there is duration of existence of something. So to speak of a permittive nothingness may well create a "demand for something", just because it is mathematically permittive of everything!
In a timeless permittive condition (nothingness) any single instant is the beginning of something and that may be a single disturbance of .........?
The BB is clear evidence of the beginning of this universe. Was it necessary that something came before or did the pre-existing permittive nothingness create a demand for something?
thank you, trying again to get mpov, trying to explain it better.
The duration I try to deal with is the endless, enduring duration of energy, while not a thing is is the "alternate embodiment" of matter. Since energy is indestructible, uncreated, as a total is beyond measure. so amalgamating all the terms,
before our universe, and still in the endless future,
energy had its exclusive, monopolistic energytime , and therefore existed in kind of a timespace.
by accepting the infinity of energy's existence and therefore eternal time as it is, causality becomes a question for the religious minded. awaiting
the non existent revelation.
we just have to except that our minds can not support that eternal, uncreated concept. so
unburdened from the too deep questions, if
energy is uncreated and needed time to exist in, time extending as a dimension all the way everywhere in a kind of timespace, and it was featureless energytime. until in a point in that urspace energy changed to matter in our 3D spacetime. since then possible cycloids were at work.
Separate names with a comma.