"The Wise and God". A dialogue. A reflection...

Discussion in 'Religion' started by teroko, Apr 6, 2020.

  1. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    terako:

    How?

    What makes you think that?

    Why do you believe that?

    Do you believe that God has intervened in the physics of the universe? If so, why?

    Do you believe that the mind, or soul, survives death? If so, why?

    It sounds like you think that the universe should be built for the convenience of human beings, but you think it hasn't been. Instead, you think the universe is not in an "ideal state". Do you think that there's a God and he made some mistakes, then, or could it be that there's no Master Plan after all?

    Do you think the universe was created by a god? If so, why?

    Would a god who has troubles still be a god? What would trouble a god?

    Do you think that a god would need the help of human beings to solve his problems?

    I don't get it. I'm not getting any clear picture of what your faith amounts to from your descriptions/questions.

    What, exactly, do you believe? Do you believe there is a God, or not? Do you believe in a limited God who needs human help? What?
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    In the case of phones there is planned obsolescence. Companies who make phones want you to buy a new one every few years. If you didn't, they'd go out of business.

    Haven't you ever wondered why most phones don't have replaceable batteries?

    I can feel a "No True Scotsman" argument coming on, again.

    terato: bear in mind that Jan Ardena considers himself to be the only "true" theist in the world.

    Nope.

    Do you think that Covid-19 is God's punishment for people not obeying the Ten Commandments?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  5. teroko Registered Member

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    JamesR:
    You questioned line by line. Too much questions in several posts at a time. I will begin to answer what I think are the most relevant ones. Just tell me if something important got missing.
    The opening post is a fictitious dialogue between a wise who is supposed to know much about lot of things and some intriguing else.
    Too much diseases, calamities, catastrophes, tragedies, etc. Assuming a God exists it shouldn't be that way.
    Think in one God omniscient and omnipotent enough to have created the entire Universe but not so perfect may be, as something unpredictable for him could have happened leaving the Universe in some not ideal state for an ideal life. And something that for worst could have badly affected God himself preventing him to fix the things until nowadays.
    All Physics are obeyed all the time. If it were the case God could influence someway in our decisions may be.
    Until finally solve the things for ideal lives take place in ideal worlds in an ideal Universe.

    Please give me some time to answer the next posts. Much questions...
     
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  7. teroko Registered Member

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    the "first mover" and the "ontological argument" for instance.
    How do you explain the existence of the Physics Laws in the Universe. How they came into place?
    God created the Universe with everything in it including its Physics Laws. He developed them.
    Not so perfect God as something unpredictable happened. And as I said something that for worst could have badly affected God himself preventing him to fix the things until nowadays.
    If we could it would be good I think because our lives are affected by the problems.

    Reached the end I think...
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2020
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  9. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    teroko:

    Are you saying that you therefore doubt God's existence? Or you think God exists but he/she/it has some problems?

    "Omnipotent" means "all powerful" - a God whose power is without limits. You are suggesting that this all-powerful God had something "unpredictable" happen to him ("omniscient", by the way, would mean that he sees everything, so nothing would be unpredicted to him). You're also saying that this unforeseen thing may have left God in a state where he was unable to fix the problem. But that would mean he isn't omnipotent (or not any more).

    Your suggestion, then, appears to be that a Creator God exists/existed, but he/she/it is not all powerful or all seeing? Is that correct?

    I asked you why God would choose to act in such an indirect way, rather than acting directly himself to fix the problems. What do you think?

    Philosophers generally agree that both of those "proofs" of God are flawed.

    Are you telling me that the reason you think that the laws of physics require a God is because you can't think of any other reason why they would exist?

    Do you have any positive reason for thinking that the laws of physics require a God, or just this absence of an explanation?

    Suppose I can't currently explain how the laws of physics came into existence in our universe. What then? Do you conclude that, therefore, there must be a God?

    I'll ask you again: how do you know this? Why do you believe it? You didn't really answer me last time. You tried to answer by asking me a different question.

    You didn't really answer my question, again. I asked you whether you think God needs human help to solve his problems. What do you think?
     
  10. teroko Registered Member

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    I believe God exists but has problems.
    Right.
    It could be God doesn't know the solution of the problem he face yet.
    Yes.
    May be is by Occam's razor principle that it is simple to think in a God developing the Physics' Laws against the big difficulty in trying to make them appear spontaneously in the Universe.
    There's no why may be. I just believe that.
    Answered above: It could be God doesn't know the solution of the problem he face yet.
     
  11. teroko Registered Member

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    James R and everybody:
    Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
    Better to continue alone with my reflections...
    I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
    Thanks.
     
  12. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    teroko:

    Wouldn't it be simpler to account for the evils in the world by saying there's no God, rather than there is a God but he has problems?

    God is not a simple explanation. God is a very complicated explanation that just raises a lot more questions. The obvious one is this: if God created the laws of physics, what or who created God?

    You might want to argue that nothing created God, that God has always existed. But then, wouldn't it be easier to argue that the laws of physics have always existed? We at least have some good evidence for the laws of physics, to start with.

    You believe it because you have faith (a belief in the absence of evidence)?

    Okay. The next question is: do you think it is good to believe in things for which there is no good evidence?
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    "I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" [or words to that effect] Voltaire:
    Jan could learn a heap from your apparent decent attitude and honesty.
    In the meantime, I have a video of a Professor Sean Carroll giving a lecture on "The Theory of God" He does it with much restraint and effort to not cause offence and with utmost aplomb....much like another who I often admired named Carl Sagan.
    The video is lengthy [just under an hour] but I hope you take the time to watch and understand why many scientists see god/s as unnecessary and superfluous.Whether you change your belief or not is your business and that should be respected.....
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Here is a shorter one [7 minutes] entitled "arguments for Atheism"
     
  15. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    So the phone isn’t flawed. Unless it doesn’t do what it is supposed to do. Then it is not a complete and functioning phone.
    Wow! A moderator that blatantly lies.
    Yep.
    You know what is so significant about the piltdown man foolishness? It’s not that it was a bald face lie, that tricked and bamboozle the public for 40 years. It was the desperation that caused its perpetrators to commit that act.
    Who mentioned anything about punishment?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
  16. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Birds of a feather...
     
  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Why did you come on discussion forum?
    And why do you appreciate everybody’s comments
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry Teroko in raising you in comparison to a known religious nut. It seems it has set him off! Apologies again, and again, a great attitude you have, so maintain it and don't worry about the fool I have awaken.
     
  19. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Because he listens...because he does not lie...because he is honest...because he is not a damn fool. You could learn from him, but alas, no hope of that.
     
  20. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    That’s why he said...

    Don't worry. I know nobody can agree or even understand properly my point of view.
    Better to continue alone with my reflections...
    I appreciate everybody comments anyway.
    Thanks.
     
  21. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    A shame you refuse to take a leaf out of his book......obviously though again, you have redefined what I'm alluding to...or perhaps just plain dumb?
     
  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    That is a matter of perspective. Personally, I'd prefer it if my phone had a removable battery, and I consider that a flaw. On the other hand, the makers of that phone consider it a clever design feature which allows them to sell more phones more often.

    You can't always deduce what a thing is "supposed to do" just be looking at the thing itself. A purpose is not the same as a function. To establish purpose, you have to establish that there is somebody who had/has an end result in mind. Function is another matter. You can investigate what the function of something is without needing to consult a designer (if there is one).

    Mild exaggeration is all. You did, after all, just tell yet another person that they aren't a "real" theist, in effect, despite their stating that they believe in God. You have a habit of doing that.

    Why were the perpetrators desperate? Who do you consider the perpetrators were, by they way (because that's still a subject of some debate)?

    There's a long history of clever fraudsters in many fields. Look at art fraud, for instance.

    In the case of Piltdown man, some scientists questioned the claims right from the start. During the 40 years you mention, the "finds" came to be considered more and more of a bizarre aberration, because they did not fit in with other fossils that were being found relating to human evolution. They did send some scientists off on various wild goose chases, to the extent that about 250 scientific papers were published relating to the Piltdown "finds". But science corrected the error, as it usually does.

    Oh, sorry. Do you think that Covid-19 is God's generous gift to his Creation, in return for their disobeying of the Ten Commandments?
     
  23. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Does your phone perform the task that it is supposed to?
    So what. I don’t really know what a carburettor does, but I know it does something. And if it does what it is supposed to do, then it is complete in it’s design.
    I assume there is somebody who had a purpose in mind.
    But you know there is a designer. That’s the point.
    Not up to the point where you lied.

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    Stop playing games James. Piltdown Man was fraud, designed to fool the public into accepting human evolution. People were fooled for decades. Why would they do that?
    They were desperate mate.
    That desperation appears to be a characteristic.
    No. Whatever gave you that idea?
     
  24. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    More like designed to rob folk of their cash ...one bad apple that was noticed from the start and removed as soon as possible.
    It seems folk knew the guy was a con but we're unable to nail him.
    But all the other evidence remains.
    Alex
     
  25. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Jan like many other religious fanatics, will use any flaw in science to continue to preach there nonsense.
    The facts are, as he has been told, nothing is perfect. There has been some fraud and mistakes in science, and just as obvious, the flaws and mistakes are rectified by the same science...science is in continual progress and search for knowledge...far different from the "stick in the mud" unchanging, unevidenced nonsensical approach and the lies that Jan continues to troll with.
     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.

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