Thoughts and prayers

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Vociferous, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. RainbowSingularity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    609
    link ?

    a single link to a news article stating the blocking of a gun control law ?

    i cant find any in google on the 1st page.
    am i missing something ?

    are you deliberately mixing and swapping
    filibuster FOR gun control with
    Filibuster to BLOCK gun control ?

    the search results soo far clearly suggest your out right lying.
    i shall continue looking

    here is google results
    search criteria =
    democrats filibuster gun control bills
    https://tinyurl.com/yd329hl2
    full link from google
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b&q=democrats filibuster gun control bills&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif6Z_lxpjaAhWIk5QKHRsuD4YQBQgkKAA&biw=1920&bih=922

    https://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/senate-gun-votes-224560

    Republicans propose 72 hour stand down for all terror watch list & no-fly terror suspects from buying a gun
    (& to innitiate the state to spend massive amounts of money to start providing legal proof of the terror watch list no-fly list as a form of public law that opposes the 2nd amendment by the state vs state.)

    Democrats say they should be banned

    nothing passed

    Republicans propose giving the background check company more money to do the same job
    and... do an official spell check and grammar check of the existing mental health wording

    "Meanwhile, the GOP plan, written primarily by Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), pushes more resources to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System but doesn’t expand the universe of mandated background checks. His measure would also revise legal definitions on who is banned from owning a gun due to mental-health concerns. It also was blocked in the Senate, 53-47, rejected by nearly all Democrats but also Kirk and fellow Republican Sen. Cory Gardner of Colorado. Sen. Joe Donnelly (D-Ind.) supported the measure."
     
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  3. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    Four links in one post, on page 6 of this thread.
     
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  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,108
    But no point in doing crazy stuff like arming teachers.
    What's your point - that adults need to be involved in sound policy and gun control? No argument there.
    Sounds like the gun crowd needs to get off its ass and lend its expertise to the incoming legislation.
    The current situation is intolerable, and will be changed. If you leave it to the uninformed, you probably won't like the changes.
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    609
    wrong
    there is no new proposed laws by the republicans to make gun control tighter.
    no new restrictions put on public.
     
  8. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    Only scaremongers and the uninformed fret over arming teachers.
    That there is no wave of gun control support or concern from children.
    No, that's just a concern troll tactic. You're never going to succeed at making gun-rights people argue against their own interests, and it's foolish if you think they will. Republicans have already offered all the legislation that has any chance, now or in the future. All this scaremongering only adds new members to the NRA, increases gun sales (their manufacturers giving more to the NRA), and turns out voters.
    Either you didn't understand what you read or you're lying.
    The Grassley bill would make sure more people who are either mentally incompetent or otherwise prohibited from buying a gun are in the background check system.
    The Cornyn bill would add a waiting period for those on a no-fly list, with the possibility of denying them the gun sale.
    Both would restrict more people ("the public") from buying guns.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,108
    But lots of informed and entirely unscared people think it's an expensive and stupidly unworkable method of securing schools from armed assault.
    All the more reason for adults to meet their responsibilities.
    Republicans have offered nothing workable or effective. Hence the title of the thread - "thoughts and prayers".
    I am advocating that they argue for their own interests. I recommend that over simply reacting to perceived foolishness on the "other side" by blocking all changes to a status quo that no sensible person thinks is sensible.

    That will fail, imho, sooner or later - if the competent and reasonable don't take the reins, they'll be along for a ride guided by others.
     
  10. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,841
    no only people woefully ignorant of what the realities of that would entail support arming the teachers. is a stupid idea pushed by people with a fetishized idea of being a hero.
     
  11. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    2,244
    Because more guns always make things better...
     
  12. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    Not those informed about guns and concealed carry. And most their arguments are centered around fear.
    All the more reason to quit using children as political puppets/footballs.
    Making NICS catch more restricted buyers isn't "workable or effective?"
    They are already arguing for their own interests. You would know that if you actually understood their interests.
    But how do you think they will fail? We've seen a huge expansion of gun rights over the last decade, including concealed, open, and even completely unlicensed constitutional carry. All while mass shootings at schools and gun violence in general have declined. https://theintercept.com/2018/03/01/school-shooting-statistics-parkland-florida/
    No, still just people who have never carried a concealed weapon and have no idea what they're talking about.

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    Compared to gun sales:

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  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    26,108
    Don't kid yourself. Lots of.
    They're centered around money and common sense.
    Doesn't excuse failure of adult responsibility.
    None of the Republican proposals have been workable or effective. Or even in good faith, common sense, etc. And all of them could have been passed without a single Dem vote.
    They are not - my direct point. (And your post proves it. How would anyone not understand their interests? They have almost unlimited media access).
    Same way head in sand rigidity fails in general - events overwhelm. The Maginot Line gets bypassed.
    Possibility: The wrong kids will start getting shot in the wrong circumstances, what started in the black towns will spread to the white towns, and they will have no say in the incoming legislation - which will give them two choices: fascism, or nannystate imposition. Both are failures.

    They're brittle, and brittle gets broken.
     
  14. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    This from the guy you doesn't understand where a teacher would put their gun while they teach.
    Sure, if "common sense" is a euphemism for ignorance inspired fear.
    Yep. Like the FBI ignoring warnings, the Broward sheriff's office ignoring warnings, squandering chances to intervene, failing to act on the scene, and helping the school follow Obama's policy of not charging teens for actual crimes in an attempt to thwart the "school to prison pipeline." Lots of adults failed not only their responsibilities but the duties of their jobs as well.
    You mean the ones that didn't pass because of Democrat filibusters weren't effective? Of course not. They didn't pass.
    No, with only 51 votes in the Senate, even one defector means it can't pass along partisan lines, and usually there are several defectors, like we saw in the Obamacare repeal efforts. John McCain, Alaska, etc..
    You apparently don't. Otherwise you could articulate them.
    So the white kids in Parkland weren't the "wrong kids?" Where's the legislation seeking to address the gang violence in black neighborhoods, and how does that crime spread to white neighborhoods?
     
  15. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,841
    • Please do not flame other members
    wrong as usual. you display the intellectual level of your avatar. it comes from while not having been in combat having an understanding of what it entails. that you magically think teachers would have substantially better hit rates than cops and soldiers despite getting far less training is quite frankly idiotic and would make one ask if you an idiot. god knows i think you idiot, in my opinion a box of rocks is more intelligent than you.
    correlation is not causation. the understanding is the violence going down is because of the crack epidemic being stopped nothing to do with wack jobs with guns
     
  16. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    No one ever said teachers would be better marksmen than anyone else, nor even as good as trained soldiers or cops. So it seems you need to learn how to read what is actually written.
    Again, no one said it was causative. But it does put the lie to the notion that more guns equal more crime.
     
  17. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,841
    its an implicit assumption to the argument. just because your ignorant of what the argument entails doesn't mean your not acountable for it. arming teachers is one of the single dumbest ideas ever offered to prevent school shootings.

    so you say no one claimed it was causative and than follow it up by going see it causes this. your not the brightest bulb in the box are you. it does nothing of the sort. your still showing your gross ignorance of statistics.
     
  18. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    No, it's your ignorant assumption that arming teachers means they must be better marksmen than soldiers or cops.
    Hahaha!
    I actually said that it showed that another causative claim (number of guns to number of crimes) wasn't true. So this is the second straw man you've made about causative claims. You don't seem to understand what a causative claim is.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    26,108
    It's the teachers asking, not me. You haven't answered that question, either - you seem to think they will be carrying it on them at all times.
    They didn't pass the House. They didn't even get out of committee, most of them.
    I did.
    They are. Hence my warning.
    You missed it? It's been kind of famous - mostly for not working.
    Good question. Ask some of the police chiefs in places like New Orleans, big cities in the South and on the coasts.

    In general, rule of thumb, black communities have fewer resources and less resistance to bad influences - they work as canaries in coal mines, in a manner of speaking. You can see that in unwed pregnancy and drug addiction epidemics and such matters. So the white folks, if they can overcome their racial blind spots, can get a heads up.

    And do something besides claim to think and pray.
     
  20. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,597
    We know from experience where teachers will put their guns while they teach.
    ============
    AP September 13, 2016, 2:53 PM
    Cops: Elementary kids find loaded gun teacher left in Pa. school bathroom
    CHAMBERSBURG, Pa. -- A teacher at a Pennsylvania Christian school accidently left her loaded pistol in a bathroom, where elementary school children found it, Pennsylvania State Police said Tuesday.
    ============
    Stoneman Douglas Teacher Is Arrested After Leaving Gun In Bathroom Stall
    April 12, 20183:22 PM ET
    BILL CHAPPELL

    Sean Simpson, a teacher at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, has spoken in favor of gun control efforts and said he might be open to the idea of carrying a gun in class. Now, he has been arrested after leaving his Glock 9 mm pistol in a bathroom.
    ===============
     
  21. RainbowSingularity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    609
    so the current system is incomplete and needs people added to it whom are already banned ?
    soo its not actually correctly run or managed and they intend to give those people more money to do the same job they are supposed to be doing but are obviousely not doing ....

    soo... ?

    you deliberately neglected to mention that the ownus of proving they should not be able to purchase a gun is put on the state government to complete that investigation inside the 72 hours.

    once the 72 hours have eleapsed they should be able to get a court to over turn thier no-fly-status based on being allowed to purchase a gun.
     
  22. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    648
    Hahaha! Concealed carriers DO carry it on them at all times. Thanks for verifying your ignorance.
    They did pass one in December:
    While the House passed a measure in December to improve the National Instant Criminal Background Checks system following a church shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas, a similar measure is stalled in the Senate due to the House bill's loosening of restrictions on concealed carry firearms.
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/12/politics/house-school-safety-bill/index.html
    But all bills have to pass the Senate too, which is why I cited all those here: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/thoughts-and-prayers.160592/page-6#post-3510247
    I'm sure you think so.
    So kids dying regularly in inner cities are the "right kids" to die? That's sick.
    And school shootings have been declining since the 90s.
    You didn't answer the question.
    Yep, like more policing, less welfare, less minority-targeted abortion clinics, etc..
    So this happens a lot? Out of how many teachers who carry?
    At least four states are considering legislation that would allow educators to carry a concealed firearm in schools. Eight states already do.
    ...
    Donnelson volunteered to carry a gun in his classroom, he's one of about 100 armed staff in schools across Colorado.
    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-its-like-for-one-teacher-who-already-carries-a-gun/

    Although the notion may seem radical, at least 14 states already arm teachers, according to a VICE News review of state laws and interviews with education department officials and school board associations around the country. Those states are Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Idaho, Indiana, Missouri, Montana, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, and Washington.

    Another 16 states give local school boards the authority to decide whether school staff can carry guns, either explicitly or through legal loopholes, but officials said they didn’t know of any instances of armed teachers in those states.
    https://news.vice.com/en_ca/article/ywq8b5/teachers-armed-guns-classroom-state-laws

    After the shooting at Sandy Hook in 2012, teachers in Utah were offered the chance to take a free gun training course. Over 400 signed up, according to Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council.
    http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/08/news/ben-carson-guns-teachers/index.html
    So a teacher would leave his gun in a bathroom on the beach while he taught?
    While very inconvenient, that sounds like it would make you happy. After all, it's not at school.
    No, they intend to add penalties for failure to report these prohibited buyers to the background check system.
    Buy yes, it does speak to trusting large bureaucracies to keep us safe.
    Yes, it's called due process of law, specifically guaranteed by the Constitution, and the undue burden standard upheld in constitutional law.
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,108
    The teachers think that won't work. And they are the ones you are expecting to carry.
    That was a bill loosening restrictions on conceal carry. That does nothing - and then they offer thoughts and prayers.
    That's not doing anything - that's making everything worse.

    And then offering thoughts and prayers - insult to injury.
     

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