Three Claims of Uniformitarian Naturalism

Many of the folks here seem to like using negative reinforcement and use it on an almost constant basis.

Kinda Strange?

 

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The question is why would you choose to follow an ideology that teaches to you be a liar and a fraud?

There you go preaching again.

 

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Apparently, I cannot.

 

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One particular person on this thread uses deception and dishonesty on an almost constant basis.

 

Don't you mean him this guy:

Came out before I was born.

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Where does Jesus teach us to do that?

 

Too bad, there's very little difference between the way you both think and behave, he's figured out a way to make money from it.

 

Ha Ha!!! Keep up the great work Q!!!

 

I do think the thing to note is he is not the only "character" and when we look at the folk in religion we find limitless opportunity to be very critical...you can find folk like old mate and remember as crazy as he is he is a leader of similar crazy folk.

There are so many crooks, liars fools and seemingly insane people I can not understand how anyone would want to be in that club or fail to recognise the whole deal is built on lies.

Somehow you for example do not see you are just one of them..that is very sad and what I find disturbing is you are no doubt destroying your boys ability to reason thru this and place them on a path built on lies.

If you left religion out of their lives do you think for one moment they would embrace it when their minds are mature and rational?

There is plenty of evidence proving all gods are a human invention, the proposition that a god fathered a human god is just insane..think it thru..and this god confirmed himself to an area confined by three days walk..get real...then look at the history, the multitude of astrology based human gods...mate it is not as though the truth is not there for you to see for goodness sake..it is so readily available you need to ask why you ignore it...you need to ask how you can for even a moment think a god would father a human child...you need to think about this original sin plot and also ask why the need for any of it...and ask yourself if you could expect a divine book to be perfect and not contain nonsense.

It is not a case of we are all searching many of us have escaped the superstitious bog you find yourself in and guess what..it is rather easy now that we can find real answers to everything..but you must look beyond a ancient book written by folk who did not know and just made stuff up.

It is simple..read history and science and stop accepting stories that would not make sense if you had not been fed that crap since you could talk.

There is nothing to figure out really as most every thing you want to know has many experts devoting their lives to that particular subject.

And if you think folk from thousands of years ago who thought illness was due to demons..and just make a list of the nonsense they believed..if you think they have they answers you sir are a fool.

Sure..where you have humans you will find fraud.

But be realistic..fraud is the rule for the religious mob..it's the way of it..I literally could spend days posting videos of the frauds..you do know that don't you...it is mind boggling... religion is built on lies but not science and it constantly weeds out the frauds..it does not shield them like religion does...and the excuses..if a religious person stuffs up..they blame a non existent mythical.."Satan"..get real...there is no Satan but there is personal responsibility..if I make a mistake it's my fault I don't blame some bogeyman.. what crap..and you don't see a problem?
I guess when it is "ours" we see no fault but the fault remains nevertheless.

No Seti that is just not good enough. It is just not good enough.
Do you not have any ethical standard?
Do you feel entitled to lie and not defend your lie?

You claim miracles exist it is your responsibility to back up your claim..

You must see that.

Not to do so is worse than lieing..you need to understand that.

But it does...you claim miracles exist...back up your claim by showing that.

You claim that to show one miracle sees the end of atheism..back up your claim.

You are so used to accepting bullshit you think the world works that way..no..it does not..you say something you must back it up. What is it about that proposition that you can not understand.

Prove one miracle..if there are thousands it should be easy.

Now if you can't back up your claims just don't make them..I claim gods are invented..I can and do back that up with real evidence that would stand up in a court of law...I claim JC was taken over by a Roman family for political reasons..I can back that up with evidence that would be accepted in a court of law..I claim that all the human gods were based in astrology and there were many of them JC being just another of that type of cult..I can back that up with evidence that would be accepted in a court of law...

I would like you to back up your claims or withdraw them.
You must stop telling lies...I am sure you don't even understand what a lie is..do you? To make an unsupported claim is a lie.

It would seem to me that it would be entirely possible that Andromeda could have disappeared a million years ago ..well that is an unrealistic perhaps..but if it did we would not know for another million years... a star could have exploded 500 years ago which we don't know about until the blast vapourises us..of course we just would not know..we would not see the thing that will kill us ... I will know more when it happens.

The sort of thing shown here is common place thru out history ..why do you dismiss that it happened here..just because in this case it's your god and somehow he was not invented or enlisted in politics...you need to step back from your emotional investment and weight the evidence and sadly if you can do that you will see how and why christianity spread thru the world...the Roman world...along the roads they built and controlled. And the Roman hand still has a grip today thanks to their change from control by military might and moving to control by religion.

It's very clever..sort of thing that I would have done.

And look at what we have today..if there was a JC they probably would not let him through the doors today.

Politics mate..think it through...

It probably best to examine the evidence ..the evidence is clear and leads to only one conclusion..it's history mate you can't just say you will accept if you like it or reject it if you don't.. you can't change the facts..it's all written down as well.

Cherry picking..but go ahead I won't stop you ..only because I can't.

Did that one have god with a consort?

It is a pity that man has to invent and reinvent this god when the sensible thing to do would be just appear..but I suppose given the universe is at least 90 billion light years across containing billions of billions of galaxies and trillions of planets a great proportion that will no doubt have life..my point is he has a lot of places to visit we will be lucky to get a look in...just the occasional miracle...he must be able to travel faster than light ... just so hard to get your head around if you think about it..but happily most folk don't think .. the universe is no bigger than from where they live to where they go on holidays...

You do try so hard to be a good little Roman, sorry Christian, that's what the empire wants folk to be nice, to follow the laws of Rome, to be good citizens.

Are you really grateful?

Anyways I really would like you to present one miracle and understand that a claim that is not backed up is a lie..that's why you are called a liar here..you probably don't understand that at all..you see someone calling you a liar and yo think..I am not a liar..I don't tell lies...I am Christian and a good person..mate you make a claim and make no attempt to back it up then you are a liar..you need to understand that..it's not others being wrong here you just have not realised that is what we mean when we call you a liar..you do now..so back up your claims.

Alex

 

Thanks! Ha! Ha!

 

You are appalled by Hinn, yet you're seeing yourself when you look at him.

 

Alex,

Let me please make sure I understand the situation here, Ok?

So instead of researching it for yourself, you want me to present my favorite, watch you make up a narrative about it from thin air, knowing nothing about the realities involved, having not been there at the time, having not personally known any of the people involved in the situation, most likely including any character assassinations you wish to throw at these people where convenient that you again do not know and have never met.

You will then claim that the miracle has been debunked and that I am foolish for trusting humans, but that I should trust you, a human?

I will then provide you with another one,
and wash, rinse, repeat through 1400 of them?

And, you are very clearly threatening me, that I will continue to be called a liar until I do so?

Are you sure you really want to abuse me and the reputations of so many others in this way?

Is this really how you treat others?

Is this how you want to be treated?

 

Seti you could guess that I have researched the matter, given what you must see as my position.

Would you not think that I have covered some ground here?

That's it..but let me remind you of the context..you make the claim so it is your responsibility to support your claim..it is that simple.

Now what could be fairer than me letting you select from over thousands of miracles to find the most compelling present it and have me and all the atheists here become believers in an instant..your claim is miracles are real from god and when demonstrated to an atheist he will be converted..is that more or less what you claim?

Well let's do this..while I go off looking at your lists why don't you back up your claims?

Well here is the thing..the courts face that problem with every single case before them..every one..Certainly that proposition manifests in the millions..so yes I see your point..however the courts just go on the evidence and the rules that allow in good evidence and excludes bad evidence..so why not do this..just imagine you are in court trying to prove your claims by selecting from your long list and applying the rules of evidence I am sure your concerns can be overcome.

I can understand your concern but happily courts do not allow what you fear..moreover in simple discussions here you will notice to employ an addhominim errodes ones arguement rather than strengthen it.

If any of these miracles can be proven to be due to god no doubt your second claim will be established.

You really have an easy task...you have thousands of, on your account, well evidenced miracles to pick from, you have no fear of any personal attacks ..it seems that if all you say is true and not a lie then you do not have anything to worry about..heck out of thousands there must be one that supports your claim..or have you just been quoting that list as some sort of vague authority that you think discharges your responsibility to back up your claims..not on ..back up your claims or withdraw them.

I promise that I will not do that...as to the last part you have a good point..can I be trusted? I think so but let's leave that out of it..you back up your claim or at the very very least attempt to do so or withdraw you claims..I will not even comment..so with your fears put to rest please go ahead.

No no no...just one if you back up your claim we need not do that..win lose or draw is not so much the issue as you need to at the very least back up your claim..a feeble attempt is at least an attempt and would rid you of the title liar..I don't even care if you fail but I do think you need to learn that if you make a claim you must back it up..if you can not you can only be branded a liar..I don't want that..I like you and believe it or not I am trying to help you.

It is not a threat..as I said..I am trying to help you..clearly you do not understand why people call you a liar..you are completely ignorant of what is going on...let's me give an exaggerated example so you can see the position you put yourself in...I call to your house and say...something clearly wrong..a fat lie...mmm I am not good at lieing so give me some time here...hmmmm...say I say I say your kids have been killing dogs in the park and selling the meat in school laced with drugs...what do you think you would say..first words because this is extreme..you would say liar...you would not bother with back up your claim at all...do you see it yet.?

Seti..I do not seek to abuse you, but I can see why you could take it that way...I hope given my example when we call you a liar it is a matter of fact...you make claims, unsupported, why would you not get called a liar?

I think you just don't understand ..however think of my example...all we are doing is not going straight to..liar..we ..me..ask that you back up your claim.

I can't see why it is a big deal really you say something you back it up...imagine my example..your kids are selling dog meat with drugs at school..are you going to say..oh really I will discuss that with them..at the very least you will say..back your claim up please and thank you.

Can't you see it?

Given my example maybe you understand now,...I treat others rather well I feel..I treat you ok..I have taken time to explain what you clearly do not understand... what would you call someone making unsupported claims..think the example.

Your mob make many claims that by the standard I describe are lies but never do they see that they lie..I hope you see why you will be called a liar.
You say there are thousands of miracles yet will not stand behind your claim.

I do not lie and if I did would expect to be called a liar.

You may notice if I remember
, when I make a wild speculation I qualify it as such...you certainly do not qualify any of your claims as speculative but as fact..well you claim fact then back it up.

Just try it...one miracle..see if you can back up what you have said..I won't say a thing if you at least try but if you don't it won't only be me calling you a liar..nothing personal...I like you and trying to help you understand how you will be seen by folk who are not into just accepting something that has no basis in reality.
Alex

 

Alex,

I am going to leave the Existence Of Miracles where it is for now. And I do expect to be called a Liar from now on because of it. So please enjoy that, if you wish. I will endeavor to Love and Respect you regardless.

I agree with some of your statements, you have a lot of great insight, but I am still kind of waiting around for the Scientific proof for these two items...

Claim 1
Nature is all that exists.

Claim 2
Everything can, and indeed must, be explained by time plus chance plus the laws of nature working on matter.

I really don’t think that either one is provable using the Scientific Method, and I think therefore that they have to be unscientific assumptions themselves.

I personally think that it is circular reasoning on steroids!

Do you hold these two Claims personally in some form, if so would you please re-word them in any way you prefer.

You seem to hold these two one minute and then say that you don’t the next, making your position confusing, indefensible, and unfalsifiable.

So, perhaps a simple Yes or No would be kind of nice, if you would be so gracious. Or however you wish to clarify your position.

I promise I won’t call you a liar for disagreeing with me in some way. I very rarely would treat people so poorly, though I know I am certainly capable of doing so.

But you go ahead, please!

 

Is that not what you claim, except for an additional unsupported claim that God created all of Nature, no?

Why not? We don't know now and that doesn't seem to interfere with anything, but we are learning every day. Would be nice if we could solve the riddle once and for all. We are a curious species and we like to know, that's all.

Religion already claims to have solved these two riddles and knows everything about creation and who did it, no?

 

Ok, great, can you please prove either Claim using the Scientific Method?

Do you even make or hold these Claims personally yourself?

Or are you more of an open minded free thinker kind of person?

 

I can ask the same question of you. The point is that we might be a "brain in a vat" computer program and have no clue about reality at all.

I have a preferred perspective. Consider the abstract concept of dynamical fractal functions, aka Causal Dynamical Triangulation (CDT)......

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causal_dynamical_triangulation

I am persuaded by the beautiful enfolded Logic inherent in the unfolding spacetime fabric, which is expressed through the unfolding of pattern densities and physical manifestation of variable relational values and their orderly
mathematical interactions.

Mathematics as a neutral substitute for all possible other Universal "origins", able to impart a self-referential self-organization, and form the mathematical patterns which comprise all we can observe and all we cannot .

IMO, Mathematics allows us to decribe and explain both quantity and quality of the mathematical /physical potentials of the universe(s).

I may be straying, so I'll sit back and follow the conversation.[/quote]

 

Awesome!

No, I cannot prove either one, but I also don’t hold to either one.

Mathematics is great and I am sure your knowledge in this area is far, far above mine.

Can you model freewill with a mathematical model, or model every action of every individual human on earth living today over a period of say ten days?

Just asking?

 

Who made this claim? Point him out and I will deal with him...hang on isn't that like saying the Sun is the center of the Solar System...it's pretty basic.

You know that is Sortta a situation that is reasonable and generally accepted..just like the Sun being the center of the Solar System and it would seem to me if one is to claim otherwise that would be where the burden of proof must lay.

What is such a problem with these claims...if you could call them that..they are hard,y anything like your nonsense re miracles and that all atheists will roll over when they see a miracle...you just can't stand that you gods are made up and you have been conned a d that there is clear proof that is fact.

In any event let us approach your problem this way ...let us leave the question entirely open and if you can show that say the Sun is not the center of the Solar System or that there is more than the nature we observe feel free to establish what is outside nature...for a start I thought nature is all there is..it's like the universe..there is no outside the universe upon my speculation but that seems reasonable...

It does not worry me if someone comes along and shows there is something more than nature or that there is something outside the universe... in any event they would only be speculating the same as me.

We have a limit on what we observe if there is anything past that, more than nature, that the Sun is not the center of the solar system or there is something outside the universe... I expect someone will show it to us but it would seem no one could do more than speculate

I think that is rather general but if you have somehing else to add go ahead. Or put it this way I cant think of a thing that you could not fit more or less in that description...we don't know how the universe started or how life started but what else could there be other than natural processes ..again given that is what reasonable folk consider normal would it not be up to the person trying to assert otherwise to show us that which does not fit in that box.

Well maybe you are right but I think no one is concerned past what we can observe...science is more specific..it works out how sections work..you know germs, chemistry, how chemistry is likely to create life, how most all things have reasonable explanations...

But as I said neither is important really if someone wants to show something undiscovered they are free to do so.

Well science does tend to limit itself to reality so for people who want something outside reality they won't be happy with where science takes them...it is almost mandatory for religious folk to ignore science as it explains most everything in simple terms and is unreliant on make believe and superstition.

Your reasoning you mean? Well at least you are trying to think it seems and realising applying scientific method is the only way to go.

Thanks for your invitation to speculate. Well I think ( mere speculation) that the universe is eternal and that it has always been, that there was never a point of creation and certainly no entity we can call a creator.

I just think that an infinite universe makes more sence than a infinite entity who popped out of eternity to create a finite universe some 90 billion light years wide to establish one life species as his pets and insist on never making himself known such that the entertainment of his existence has been responsible for most of the wars a d misery on our planet. Further it makes no sense that a god would breed with a human so that the offspring could be used as a sacrifice.. just seems un god like and something you could expect superstitious goat herders to invent and be used for political ends to identify the most gullible in society and control them cheaply via con men who can convince them of anything.

Your determination to make it all come true is interesting but leaves me wondering why you need to attack science when all you need to do is establish what you believe in is actually real, that the wild claims you make have some basis in truth...you are the one forced to jump thru hoops to explain the various stupid parts..you are the one who holds up a book full of errors as the word of God and you seek to attack the one institution that has freed humans from starvation, disease ignorance etc etc..shame on you...just prove your imaginings are real, back up your outrageous claims...
Me I speculate, read real history, real science and limit my views to provable and reasonable..I don't preach made up nonsense then get upset because sensible people won't buy nonsense.

Support that claim.

If I have been confusing I will do better...but what is confusing about wanting you to prove your claims and help you avoid being called a liar, indefensible??? Perhaps you could explain what you mean by that???? And unfalsifiable???

What bit? My claims that gods are made up? That JC was taken over by Rome for political purposes?

You are lashing out is all cause you have nothing and if you think at all that must become more obvious each time you visit..you cant out of 1400 listed miracles select and present as credible a single one...

Well if you think I am lying call me out..where..wanting you to back up your claims? Explaining why folk call you a ,air.. you still don't get it do you..if you can't back your claim which you have now refused to do I don't know what we should call you...mmm a believer? An honest man? A man seeking truth? Or a troll who comes here makes wild claims and refuses to back them up and rather addressing all the problems with your situation tries to be cute with some nonsense about something he thinks science runs by that saying nature is it is somehow preposterous..give me strength.

Look at religion and all the death misery intolerance and stupidity it has delivered to humans then look at science..showed us that demons are not the cause of illness for a start, ...you are entitled to make what ever mistakes you wish but if you come here throwing around your bullshit do not expect that you will not be held to account.

Now if you contend there is more than nature speak up...if you have a mechanism past time matter chemistry etc ..then speak up.

What is outside nature? What does not evolve via time matter chance etc...you are just ticked off that you have backed the losing horse and nothing you can do will change that and leaves you lieing and trolling.

I hope you are proud of yourself. If science is so bad why don't you give back it's fruits...what has religion given you that half way measures up..just get real.

I am just so disappointed in your failure to deal with a miracle but it says everything about you..make bullshit claims and cop out when asked to back up your claim.

You are attracted to Christianity because it has good teachings..I follow many things I have read in the bible,cover to cover..I bet you haven't.. if you had and took it in your would be an atheist no question..funny how atheists have mostly all read the bible and believers dont...but don't be fooled...gods are invented and to a degree are important as the average person can accept many sensible things they are told to do if you put a god brand on it...forgiveness..it's not about being a good boy it is the sensible thing to do..do you stew and plan revenge or forget it.. forgiveness is the only path that leads you away from revenge..and realistically you cant revenge these days...not like the good old days where you could call for a duel and kill your enemy because he laughed at your new hat...I conceed humans need guidance but wouldn't it be nice to weave the truth in there somehow...How people buy it is beyond me..so god came down created a Son that he needed to sacrifice..sacrifice...that is going back isn't it..but we have the story so we still support this crazy unrealistic story...then we get folk like you who make unbelievable claims which perpetuates the nonsense...follow Buda..that has good principles and there is no lies about where he came from.
Stay safe and well.

Alex

 

OK, being that this is your pond, do I have permission to throw a stone in the still water and see if it makes a circular wave pattern ....

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IMO, emergent self-awareness in sensory processes may afford a measure of self-determination, a limited agency. Groups of individuals may form a cohesive group determination and make a common plan for an action ten days from now, following a specifically mathematically designed routine to achieve the ten day goal. Weightloss competition anyone?

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