To all the people who are going to hell in a hand basket...

Oxygen,

Why do you feel that God does not love you? Why do you believe that all God wants to do is punish you?

From some of the things you have told me about yourself, Oxygen, it sounds like you are very Christ-like. However, it is also apparent that there is something missing in your life... and that is the love of Jesus Christ.

May I suggest that you try this... each morning, go to a quiet place, by yourself, and open your heart fully to Jesus Christ. Jesus loves you and WANTS to share your life with you. I promise you, He will not hurt you and you will not be punished. To the contrary, your sins will be forgiven and you will experience peace, joy, and more love than you could ever imagine. Like your relationship with others, Jesus is here to serve us and to help us. If not Him, then who?

There is no greater love than God's love for you, Oxygen.

I hope you don't mind... I will be praying that you find a right relationship with God through the love of Jesus Christ.

 

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TS,

Ok, your intentions are meant to be good..I will give you credit there. It's just...well..I just do not think it is right to state your way is the only way..and that all others are false. To me your way is 100%
false...but, I don't come out here telling you that you HAVE to follow the Spirit of Truth ONLY or you will go to some place of torture...which there is none- which is beside the point. I don't know..it just blows my mind how you guys think

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Skye--

The way I've been seeing it of late is that concepts of God are supposed to contain all there is. Be it the God of the Hebrews, who created their universe, or the God of the Christians, who knows the whole of that universe, or the Goddess--as such--who is found in the intricate play of the universe .... (I could go on, I think.

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)

If, for instance, God is all the universe and all it shall ever be, then we, as humans, have evolved to our present function and appearance because it is the only way we could have ... the universe, through its properties, and the conditions necessary for what we call life have determined humans to be bipedal with so many digits on each hand and a certain brain capacity, and so forth. Thus we are created according to the ways of the universe; if God is that universe, then we are created "in God's image".

I think people are free to call God what they want.

But I also believe that there is a reason humans exist in the universe. Even if that reason is simply to experience the life phenomena, it is a purpose. It would seem to me, then, that good and evil are determined in relation to that purpose, and there's the hard part. As I have no solid clue as to what that purpose is, I find myself in a moral quandary.

I think if we were to assemble a mosaic of all human faith and philosophy, and then pare away the excess and politics, we might find a few standards representing universal human ideas. These might not define the purpose of life, but they're a heck of a road-sign, in my opinion.

A friend of mine--a musician--sees the essence of God as a "perfect note". I, personally, have never heard this tone, and neither has he. In fact, the existence of this perfect tone is confirmed much in the same way Anselm confirms God ... that there is imperfection, there must be perfection. This note--this God--must exist, because all else godly to him falls short of ... of what example? An idea. But what dogma describes that faith? How to maintain a state of mind harmonious enough with the universe around him to continue to seek that perfect note?

But I think certain ideals permeate the human consciousness, and everything humans do or create reflect those ideals.

As for my own notion, I usually see God as the universe itself ... the metaphors apply well enough that most Gods can be contained this way. Perhaps our images of God are the way we seek our purpose in that universe.

If it makes sense, cheers. No, I don't see any real continuity in that mess of words. But God's kind of vague to me, so this might be the best I can do for now.

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thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
The Universe is the Practical Joke of the General at the Expense of the Particular .... (Perdurabo; The Book of Lies)

 

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Flash,

I am not talking about MY way.

It is God who has called me to spread God's message. It's not my "belief". It is not a threat. It is factual information.

God IS the Spirit. God IS the truth. God's message is given to everyone here in the Spirit of the Truth.

God gave us all life because God loves us all.

God is preparing the kingdom of heaven for all of us because God loves us all.

God is giving us this information so that we will all find our way to the kingdom of heaven... so that we can all dwell with God, the most loving, for all eternity.

Guess who it is that wants you to think that God is a big meanie? He wants you in his kingdom, too, but not because he loves you...

 

TS,
No, I do not speak nor interact with any
evil forces at all, TS. All my information comes from a very LOVING Spirit. There is NO
EVIL involved..not at all..it's about peace, joy, love, ect... Hope that clears things up.

 

Truestory -

You don't think that was nice? Well, I guess you just don't know how black my temper can really be. (Shrug) That was toned down about 99 degrees from what I would have said, if I had no restraint. But I try not to be a bitch, even when I'd really LIKE to be one. I suppose it doesn't come accross on most of my posts, I edit heavily before I actually put them out there, but trust me, that's about as much sugar as I could pile onto that pile of dog-doo. (Look! I cleaned that up too!)

The reason I'm objecting, True, is because you keep jumping back to this "MY God is the only God" - I'm just sick of it. To you, that is the only god, but guess what, there are millions of other people, billions of others that do not follow that god. Speaking from a global sense, there ARE many gods and goddesses, you might not believe in any of them, but to all these other billions of people, they are just as real as your god. If you can't see that, you must be blind. My god is just as real to me as your god is to you, and by you constantly insisting that my god can't even be called God, it's insulting.

So as a favor to me, pretty, pretty please, with honey and sugar on top, will you please knock it off?? In the spirit of love and compassion that Jesus was so fond of preaching about, can you give me a break? You are now aware that I find that personally offensive, so can't you ease off, just a little bit?? I do like debating with you, but if you keep insulting me, I won't.

NOW, regarding my personal set of morals - let me clarify a bit... My rules are not religious rules. These are rules I have been drawing up since I was about 14 and decided to run my life MY way, not anybody else's. These rules predate my religious beliefs.

Having said that, let me move on...here's a sampling of my values:

It is wrong to try to force your will or beliefs upon another. Debating, discussing, and sharing is acceptable, forcing in ANY way is wrong. (This is one I try to keep in mind when I'm posting here)

It is wrong to do something you know will harm another. Be it physical, mental, financial, emotional, or any other kind of harm, it is to be avoided at all costs.

It is wrong to treat children as less than human - they are people just as much as adults, and deserve the same respect.

It is wrong to kill animals. It is wrong to eat meat. It is wrong to wear leather.

It is wrong to be happy at another's misfortune.

It is wrong to brag.

It is wrong to be petty, in any dealings.

It is wrong to steal, not even post-it notes from work.

It is wrong not to take the blame for my mistakes.

It is wrong to wallow in self-pity after a mistake. Mistakes are to be learned from.

It is wrong to judge my fellow human until I have walked in their footsteps.

It is wrong to abandon those that depend upon you. This includes pets, relatives, friends...

It is wrong to harm Mother Earth. It is wrong not to recycle, it is wrong to pollute. Always leave nature cleaner than you found it.

That's a few of them, off the top of my head. These are by no means complete, but I think it's a good starting point.


Time's I've broken my rules?? Well, I've worn leather, in fact I have suede shoes on now. Terrible. I regret that. I could justify it by saying that they last longer than other shoes, thereby reducing landfill, but I know that's just an excuse. I bought them because they were cheap, and fit well. I have had bad dreams over these shoes, believe it or not.

Oops gotta run, more later.

 

Vinnie,

Let's just see what the bible describes as hell... the hell your ever loving God wants to send others who do not join his team..
The following are things I have copied and pasted from a web page...where they are trying to scare others into accepting Jesus..of course they are only doing what the bible teaches that your God does...

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .” Luke 16:23

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am TORMENTED in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The Bible describes it as weeping (Matt 8:12), wailing (Matt 13:42), gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:50), darkness (Matt 25:30), flames (Luke 16:24), burning (Isa 33:14), torments (Luke 16:23), everlasting punishment! Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Jesus says in Matthew 25:41: ". . . Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, . . ."

Rev. 14:11: "The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT."
(TALK ABOUT HOLDING A GRUDGE!!!!!!!!!..GOD IS MERCIFUL???? YEAH, LOOKS LIKE IT!)

Yeah ... just a mere separation from your LOVING God, huh???

 

SkyeBlue,
that was

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, it made me feel like an eiderdown

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Happy Hippie new year

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Skye,

OUR God. Not MY God, not YOUR God. God is not the God of who you call "the Christians" at the exclusion of all others. None of us are excluded from God. Whether we accept God or reject God, God is the God of us all.

I have never denied you your right to choose to worship the forces of nature which you have chosen to personify as gods and goddesses. I have never denied that such forces exist. They most certainly do, but they do not belong to you, exclusively, nor do they belong exclusively to those who choose to personify those forces as gods and goddesses. They belong to God and God's universe. They belong to us all. It is offensive to God, and therefore offensive to me, when they are referred to as God... as I stated previously, that is something which they are not.

When discussing this previously we did not discuss how each of us could communicate such differences in the least-offensive manner to each other in this forum.

So, to answer your question about how I would prefer that you speak of God vs gods and goddesses in order to convey your distinctions, I would prefer that you refer to God as "God" and that you refer to personified forces of nature, if you must, as "gods and goddesses"... I think that would be appropriate... it would be less offensive to God, and it would serve our efforts to communicate in this forum.

 

TS,
Just how the heck is that fair to Skye???
Can you not see how that sounds? You all just blow me away..big time!

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What's an eiderdown????????? I've gotta know.

Skye,

So are you saying that you believe that the God of the Bible exists along with all of these other gods or what? See, that doesn't "fit" in my head or in my Bible either. See, our beliefs are mutually exclusive. It's either one or the other. We Christians can't help it that the Bible is so comprehensive in it's truth?! It explains EVERYTHING, even YOUR religion. Does your religion explain mine? Let me guess....close-minded ancient misinterpreted for purposes of oppression human dribble? Am I close? Well, I'm sorry, but I'M not dumb enough to accept such a lame-butt (my promise

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) explanation. It's not good enough. If you know ANYTHING about the Bible, it just simply does not stack up at all. Not even close. Learn more about the faith. I DARE you. I double-dare you. You will eventually see what I see. I guaaarrroonnteee.

------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

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[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 31, 1999).]

 

Truestory, I do not share that perception with you. I believe there are MANY Gods, and the Christian God is only one of them. I simply cannot say that any clearer!!

I'm sorry if that insults you, but it is my perception. I have tried to be inoffensive in demonstrating the differences I see, but I cannot change my view, nor would I choose to do so merely to satisfy you, or anyone else.

You, and those that share your faith, believe your God is the only god. I, and those that share my faith, do not believe this is so. What you are basically doing is completely closing off any thoughts of the way others believe - in which case I don't think we are 'debating' anymore, instead it becomes an 'argument'. I don't wish to argue with anyone here.

I say you have the right to believe in your God, and you and I do not believe in the same God. Should I change my words, and start saying that the God you cherish is nothing? I have given you this courtesy, why can't you give me the same? Is it threatening to you? Why can you not respect the differences in our faiths, and debate from there? You insist upon throwing away my beliefs as so much fantasy - while I may feel the same way about your faith, I at least have the decency to allow for your rights as an individual to believe what you think is right.

Shame on you, Truestory. I wouldn't treat you so unkindly.

 

Lori -

Do you even know what my religion is called? Wicca? Nope, that's not it! Try this one - why don't you study my books, then you can tell me what is and what isn't part of my beliefs. Try asking me before you assume. You have assumed incorrectly.

My belief is that there is a one power, an unthinking power. (Do these words sound familiar? I've said them before). We, as humans create gods and goddesses out of this power. Your books disagree with my books, so what? These books are written by fallable humans - even if God is dictating, people screw up. I believe your God does exist, as I've said before, I just don't think he is exactly the way the bible represents him. I think the bible is flawed.

Why don't you read some of my books - why must I read yours?? Or you can ask me questions, and I'll try to answer them. You disagree with me, fine, that's okay. Just try not to make assumptions about me, and I'll try to do the same about you. Deal?

 

Tab - you feel like a duck-feather quilt?? Kinda all warm and fuzzy-like?

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------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com

 

___________________________________________
Let's just see what the bible describes as hell... the hell your ever loving God wants to send others who do not join his team..
The following are things I have copied and pasted from a web page...where they are trying to scare others into accepting Jesus..of course they are only doing what the bible teaches that your God does...

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments. . .” Luke 16:23

HELL IS A PLACE OF FIRE

The man in Luke 16:24 cries: ". . .I am TORMENTED in this FLAME."

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Revelation 20:15 says, " And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

In Mark 9:46, Jesus Christ says about hell: "Where THEIR WORM dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

The Bible describes it as weeping (Matt 8:12), wailing (Matt 13:42), gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:50), darkness (Matt 25:30), flames (Luke 16:24), burning (Isa 33:14), torments (Luke 16:23), everlasting punishment! Jesus Christ says in Matthew 25:41, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Jesus says in Matthew 25:41: ". . . Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, . . ."

Rev. 14:11: "The smoke of their TORMENT ascendeth up for EVER AND EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT."
(TALK ABOUT HOLDING A GRUDGE!!!!!!!!!..GOD IS MERCIFUL???? YEAH, LOOKS LIKE IT!)

Yeah ... just a mere separation from your LOVING God, huh???
___________________________________________

I never said hell was a nice place to visit.

Do you honestly believe I failed to take biblical verses on hell into account when I said hell is more like separation from God than a literal lake of burning sulfer?

The bible describes hell as a place that isn't very nice. If hell is separation from God then the people there are given free run to do as they please. This means there will be lots of evil and wickedness floating about. If there were no rules or police officers in the world we would have a substantial increase in rape, robbery, murder, ad absurdom. Yet, this is what you wanted all along. No God and no rules. Don't forget to say thank you. Thats usually what you say after someone gives you something you have wanted for a long long time isn't it?

Do you honestly believe the streets in heaven will be made of gold as the bible alludes to? Gold does not rust. It is mentioned to suggest the timelessness of heaven and the preciousness of it.

"People who take these symbols literally might as well think that when Christ told us to be like doves, He meant that we were to lay eggs."

C.S. lewis Mere Christianity pg 122

On to the one true God. Why does everyone get so offended when Christians say our God is the one true God? It's always claimed that people should be free to worship who or what they want and christians should not knock them by telling them their God isn't real and that thier's is the only real God. Yet when this claim is made your guilty of doing the thing to us which you tell us not to do to others. We are just living out our religious faith. That faith says our God is the one true God. Let us live out our faith. Are we not allowed to worship our God? Our religion says he is the one true God. Are we not allowed to live out our faith? We can't accept the claim that there are more than one God and all religions are true. That claim isn't compatable with christianity. So look at the log in your own eye before pointing out the speck in anothers!


_________________________________________

If God was truly all-loving and all-forgiving, then what I believe in wouldn't matter because he'd forgive me anyway without retribution of any sort. If, however, he insists on punishing me, then he is no better than anyone with a vindictive mindset and is unworthy of my respect.
________________________________________

Was it vindictive of the court to sentance Ted bundy to death? Is it vindictive to send murdurers to jail?

__________________________________________
I walk this world in my own way. I am decent and respectful to people by default. I try not to hurt anyone, and I help out where I can because I believe "If not me, then who?" If that's not good enough for God, he can kiss my ...
__________________________________________

You may be a nice person by the words standards and so may I or anyone eles but the truth of the matter is that we are all sinners and need forgiveness in God's eyes. You may think your view of things is better than God's and he isn't being fair but if you logically sat down and thought that claim out you would realize it was nothing but pride that makes you say and think that.


Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

 

Skye,

Chill. I'm not making assumptions about you, I'm asking you to explain some contradictions that I find with what you have explained to be your beliefs is all. Like I try to do with you about mine. I've studied about alot of different religions and beliefs. Maybe not in-depth enough to consider myself an expert, as I'm not even an expert regarding my own faith, but I get what you've said about it, and I'm telling you that it's contradictory, and just hoping that you would try to explain. First, where do your books come from? How is it that you find your books to be more credible than the Bible? Also, it is impossible to believe that my God exists along side many others that you've made up because of the prinicple teachings of Christian faith, so I guess what I'm suggesting is that you either believe He exists and He is what He is, or He doesn't exist at all. I'm just confused about this concept is all. I mean, do you think that my God is just an illusion that I made up in my head, or that our desires and thoughts actually manifest themselves into a real spiritual being? Because if that's true, then my spiritual being says He's gonna kick your spiritual being's butt.

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That was funny.

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------------------
"Go Jesus, go! Go Jesus, go!"

I finally get to be the cheerleader that I always wanted to be but could not, as I was not a fluff chick.

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Skye,

I truly understand that you believe that there are many gods and that you believe that God is only one of them. Believe me, I get it and I am not insulted by that. What I was responding to was your question about how we could refer to God vs gods and goddesses, so as to be least offensive to each other while communicating in this forum.

Please allow me to use your following statement as an example of the compromise which I proposed:

If I have told you that I consider the existence of God to be a fact, and not a belief... that I have accepted God into my life... that I do not deny you your right to "believe" that there are many gods (and I really wish you would stop insisting that I am denying you that right, because I am not)... that it is my understanding that within the context of your belief in many gods, you also accept the existence of God without accepting that God is the only god... would you then have a problem say, revising your statement along the following lines:

"You, and others who have accepted God, accept God as the only god. I, and those that share my faith, do not believe this is so."???

In the interest of courtesy in debate, I would say that it would be better to say "nothing" than to refer to God as "crap".

What courtesy is it that you believe you have given me which I have not given you? limited restraint of your black temper... or, are you referring to your insistence that you are open and I am closed..??? As you know, Skye, simply saying such things do not make them so... it seems to me that your position is that you are fully open to anyone who agrees with you and encourages you in your new-found religion, but that those who express truisms which you do not accept, should be censored. On that note, thanks for sharing your rules, they seem quite noble. I know you said that it was only a starting point but, I am interested in knowing what your position is on lying... to yourself or anyone else.

What do you believe I should be threatened about? I see nothing. I do respect our differences and I do debate from there. What I am asking you to do is to also be respectful. If you want to be honest with yourself, look back to see how many derogatory remarks you have made to people who claim to be Christian, and then look back at how many derogatory remarks these same people have made about your new-found religion.

I have listened intently while you have been developing your religion, Skye. Yes, I have asked questions and made suggestions about things to think about in the neophyte stages. However, I have never dismissed you in your beliefs nor have I ever denied you your right to believe what you want.

Although I have done things in my life for which I was ashamed, Skye, I can assure you that this is not one of them. If you would only be so "unkind" to me.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 31, 1999).]

 

truestory- If I may quip a parable of my own: When I was little and couldn't balance too well, I had training wheels on my bike. They helped me stay upright. When I got bigger and could balance more, I took off the training wheels and never went back to them. The training wheels did not help me develop my balance. They only kept me from hitting the pavement when I lost my balance. I could have learned without them just as easily. They only kept me from getting hurt.

Likewise, when I was little and asked big questions, Jesus was my training wheels. The answers did not put me on any path, they only kept me from discovering truths I was not ready for and answers too heavy for me to carry. When I got stronger, I put Jesus away and dealt with the truths and answers. Jesus has done nothing for me except to keep me from hitting the pavement of the life before I was ready for it. He did his job, now it's time to put him away.

I understand that some people are not ready to takeoff the training wheels. They are not ready to take the hits. Perhaps it is best for them. Only they know for sure. As for me, I feel I no longer need them. Only I know for sure.

I appreciate your kind thoughts. They are always welcome. There is a church in Campbell, California, that has a candle burning in my name. All I did was to restore the luster and jewels of the crown on their statue of the Holy Virgin. It was one of the ones that travels from home to home of the faithful. It ended up at a friend's house. I thought the condition of the crown was a crying shame, but nobody in the congregation had the skills to fix it. I took the crown home and returned it the next day, gleaming gold and jewel encrusted with parts from broken jewelry. When they found out I was an atheist, they asked if it would bother me if they burned a candle in my honor or would I rather have money. I told the priest to use the money for the poor. A candle wouldn't bother me at all.

I'm still going to hell in a hand-basket, but I think it'll be a soft landing. Or is it a case of "Blessed if I do, Blessed if I don't?"

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Lori -

You're not making assumptions? I thought that's what this was:
"Does your religion explain mine? Let me guess....close-minded ancient misinterpreted for purposes of oppression human dribble? Am I close? Well, I'm sorry, but I'M not dumb enough to accept such a lame-butt (my promise ) explanation. "

I don't see where I ever said that, maybe you're confusing me with someone else??

Anyway... I think my books are more valid than the bible FOR ME. My books speak of things that I have felt were true my whole life long. Is that a mere coincidence, or have I somehow gotten in touch with something as ancient as mankind? I don't know yet.

As I grow and live my life, I form a picture of the universe, and how it all fits together. I revise it and re-think it constantly. I learn something new, and modify my theory to fit the new 'facts' I have discovered. The bible doesn't 'fit' into what I believe is true - therefore it is invalid TO ME. It does 'fit' what you believe is true - so for you, the bible is valid.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy that will work, but I'm slow today. Got about 3 hours of sleep last night and my brain feels kinda frozen. But you see what I'm trying to say, I think.

Let me just say this: If you were to come up to me 2 years ago and tell me I'd be practicing witchcraft, I would have laughed at you. I didn't see this coming, I thought I had a unique perception of the world. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled accross an Old Religion that fits SO perfectly with my perceptions!! Something that has been around since before anybody has record of it, something so basic to human nature... Beautiful. I thought I'd never call myself religious, but here I find myself addressing a God and a Goddess, and asking them to guide my feet on the path I have found. Quite a turn around for me. I used to call myself 'atheist', then got honest and modified it to 'agnostic'. Now, I call myself a believer.

The only thing ANY of us can do is follow what we believe is right. We believe two different things are right, who is to say one is right and one is wrong?? You have books that say one thing, my books say another. I have thoughts and proofs that indicate I am right, you no doubt have thoughts and proofs that indicate you are right. Am I going to say you are wrong for following your heart? NO!! Lori, you love your God, and I'm happy for you. I hope that brings you much happiness and peace. That's what we all deserve, in my opinion. If my beliefs bring me happiness and peace too, well...I don't see any problem with the two co-existing.

Here's another way of putting this whole my god, your god stuff. What if there is one God, and he appears to people in the way they will best understand him? So to you, he appears as the Christian god, and reassures you that he is the only one. And then he appears to me as a loving couple, because that's what I'll relate to. Does that mean he was lying when he told you he was the only god? No! God, at least in my opinion, has the ability to don many appearances. When I speak to the Goddess, and then to the God, am I really speaking to two separate entities? No! I am speaking to the same thing - the universe, the All, the life force, whatever you want to call it. I just relate to that power better if I symbolize it's existance with the male and female figures I am familiar with. Two buckets, but full of water from the same ocean. I believe the Christian God is yet another bucket, maybe a different color bucket than the ones I'm used to, but also filled with the same water from that same ocean.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone (Truestory!), but this is my 'truth' - this is what I percieve and feel. I cannot change my view merely because it doesn't agree with someone else's.

 

True'-

Criticizing Christians is different than criticizing Christianity. I've said many times that it's not the faith itelf that bothers me, it's the attitude of the followers. If you want to criticize me personally, go for it, I can take it. If you want to criticize what I believe in and act like I am the one that made this whole religion up...that's something else! That'd be some trick! Most of these books I'm reading were written well before I was born, and match things I developed all on my own. I don't remember projecting myself astrally from my mother's womb and writing these...

And I did not call your God "crap" - I called the way you were talking crap. Very different.


The problem I have with the way you reworded my quote is that, again, if I say "God", am I speaking of the God that I percieve or the one that you percieve? They appear to be quite different. If I say God appeared before me this morning...it means something quite different to me than thas same statement would mean to you. I did see God this morning - his symbol, the Sun. I didn't see the Christian God this morning, nor any of his symbols. See what I'm trying to say?? You believe he is the only god, so when you say "God", it's perfectly clear what you are talking about. Not so when I am speaking, due to my polytheistic beliefs.

I am not open to just anyone who fully agrees with me - you'll notice that Oxygen has a totally different set of symbols and beliefs, but she doesn't try to tell me mine are nonsense. Have I ever told her she was wrong? Have I ever told anyone they were absolutely wrong, and I was right?? I don't think I have, I try to be very careful to add "in my opinion" or "my belief is". The way you live might be wrong for me, but if it's right for you, go for it.

I am closed to those that believe they have the right to tromp all over other people's faiths, mine or anyone elses. What could I learn except intolerance from someone like that?? I am hoping you aren't one of those people, Truestory. I do like you, you're a bit bull headed, but so am I.

Regarding lying - I would classify that with harm. If lying to my mom and saying, "No, you don't look a day over fourty!" would cause her harm, I wouldn't say it. But I know her looks are important to her, so I hug her and tell her she's beautiful, even though age isn't treating her very well. (Oh, man, I hope she doesn't ever find this forum!) Lying to myself would only cause me harm, so I try to avoid that. Are you under the impression I am lying to myself?? About what? The God and Goddess? Nature of the Universe? I'm unclear on what that meant.

If you'll notice, I have tried sincerely to answer the legitimate questions you ask me. I have posted my little list of rules for your perusement, and have been answering questions about them. You are the one stating things like "Its God, period". No, not period. Maybe for you, but not for me. THIS is what I object to.