To the Christians...

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by H-kon, Oct 22, 1999.

  1. H-kon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Notice the questionmark before starting to assault me.. I am not a christian, so note that too.

    Christians always talk about Satan, and that he deceives us and that Jesus is going to save us all.

    Lori ( if you do not mind) have written a lot about that in her posts..

    The Question is.. Have you ever thought about that your belief might be the one that is "wrong"

    The concept ( in christian terms) that Satan, or the sorts wrote the bible is quite strange.
    Now. All i ask for is that you answer the question without going "No.. it can't be that because...." Just answer it, and tell us what you are thinking while you are answering it ( which means.. what would that do to you if you found out )

    Once again:

    Have you thought about that your belief(system) might be one made by Satan to deceive you?
    What would it do to you if that was the case?


    ------------------
    "It's always easier to ask questions than to give the answers. The Questions are almost always innocent, but the answer's are most often not".


    Haakon T Haug ( aka H-kon)
     
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  3. Flash Registered Senior Member

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    771
    I think everyone has thought that at least a
    time or two. Now, that'd be a bigger deception than the aliens being demons now
    wouldn't it??? LOL
    Good question H-kon!
     
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  5. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    1,065
    Well, I have thought that the belief system itself may not be true, or doubted that the exclusivity of it was true. I don't think that I ever attributed that to Satan though. It's kind of like, if you're not going to believe the Bible, then how can you think it's Satan's fault, since no other religion except Christianity even identifies him. I don't think that way anymore, but those thoughts did lead to a search for truth which ended with the Bible (obviously). I do though know for a fact that Satan has and does work through organized Christianity in many ways. We all know that many who call themselves Christians are corrupt, and this turns people who are looking for truth away from Jesus.

    ------------------
    God loves you and so do I!
     
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  7. H-kon Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks Flash and Lori

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    Now. When i am asking this, i also wonder how many things you have read in the bible that you have a hard time beliving in. Is there anything in the bible that would make you think otherwise about your religion on a bad day so to speak?

    It's just a little thing i am trying here. Beliefs makes one subjective to outside thoughts or emotiona, so this is really a test to make a christian look at their religion in a more objective way *as unbiased as possible*

    Is there anything in the bible that have made you think about the bible as being written by someone not "christian" in the sence there is some "bad" things in there?

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    *just trying to get inside a Christians head*
     
  8. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    H-kon,

    I know you were addressing Christians with this question, and I am not exactly a Christian. I am a Searcher for the Truth - whatever the Truth may be. I search for clues in the areas of science, history, religion and mythology, and try to piece them together as best I can.

    The Bible is filled with clues, but one cannot just blindly swallow what others tell them about what those clues mean, if it is the Truth one seeks. I object to religions that ask us to believe whatever we are told in blind faith. For what purpose were we given a mind if not to use it to discern the Truth?

    Whenever I have visited Christian churches, I felt I was attending a one-day-only sale - "Friends and neighbors, for just 10% of your gross income, you too can be saved! All you have to do is accept Jesus as your personal savior, get dunked in a pool of water, and pay 10% of your gross income to this church, and you too will be saved! Act now or risk the fires of Hell forever!"

    If I have questions which cannot be answered by those in authority, I am told that I must simply believe and pray to the Father in the name of the Son. Hmmmmmm. That brings to mind the question which was brought up earlier, and that is, "What if the Son is not the Christ - but in fact the Antichrist?" That would indeed mean that we are being deceived on a grand scale, would it not? In that case, we might as well ask the wolf to lead us safely to Grandma's house!
     
  9. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    I have yet another question for anyone who can answer:

    Read 2 Corinthians 6:1-8, and please pay special attention to verse 8:

    1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

    2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

    4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

    5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;

    6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

    7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

    8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true...

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that this last verse is calling for ministers of the Word to be deceivers if necessary. Will someone here please remind me, who is the Father of Lies?
     
  10. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    There is another thing I'm having a lot of trouble with, and that is, how can I (or anyone with even half a mind, for that matter) accept a religion that places one sex under the dominion of the other? One passage in the New Testament that particularly irks me is 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35:

    34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    Excuse me? Perhaps it is merely the flames of Hell I'm feeling right now, but this one particularly burns me up! Anyone else here have any feelings regarding this issue?
     
  11. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    Sure the hell do Searcher. Paul was a great
    one about saying things like that regarding women. Or was it Paul? Meaning... I believe
    that this all goes back to how badly the bible was mistranslated and messed with. I
    think that they (men) put what they saw fit.
    That's why I think it is important to not
    focus on the Bible so much..but rather let
    the spirit guide you to the truth. Let go
    of every thought ect...empty yourself and let
    the spirit come in and lead you.
     
  12. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Flash,

    Yes, it was Paul - the jerk!

    And by the way, I do get more answers that seem to make sense when I just meditate or think about what is good and true than when I pray in the prescribed Christian manner.
     
  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,613
    Searcher--

    And if a woman hits a guy in the balls while he's in a fight with HER husband, she loses the hand.

    No, it's not you. The Bible's full of 'em.

    * ". . . the contentions of a wife are a constant dripping." (Proverbs 19.13; New American Standard)

    * ". . . a nagging wife is like a leaky faucet going drip-drip-drip." (from Good News Bible)


    That's my two cents ... anyone got change for a nickel?

    thx,
    Tiassa

    ------------------
    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  14. H-kon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    312
    Hmm.. Maybe i was wrong in addressing the Christians only. Great responses Searcher, Flash and Tiassa

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    I can't say where in the bible it says, but according to it, it would also be legal to stone a woman if she disobeyed(sp?) a man.

    Searcher: I liked the point in where Jesus could be the Anti-Christ..

    The point is that no one knows, we are just being told to blindly believe in a very old book. .thats it. That's the reason i started this thread to see where the Christians stand in this, if they really believe in anything that is in the bible, or if they have doubts about something that sounds incredible to them.


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  15. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    Tiassa,

    Good one! If you don't mind, I would like to quote directly from Deuteronomy 25:11,12:

    11 When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:

    12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.

    Kind of gives you that warm, fuzzy feeling all over, doesn't it? And here I am this morning sitting at my computer typing away when I could be so much more amused by sitting in church listening to all this stuff!
     
  16. gary Registered Member

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    4
    i think jesse ventura got it right. yes, brutally so, without tact, but still, correct. how would one sugar coat a truth like that. of course people are going to be upset when they learn that their religions are only an elaborate tax exempt money laundering operation. oh well.
     
  17. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    H-kon,

    Well, I can think of several passages in Deuteronomy that deal with stoning women and children:

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21:

    18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

    19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

    20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

    21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

    Deuteronomy 22:13-29 discusses the value of women being in their virginity, and what should be done to men who rape virgins, men who lie and claim the wife wasn't a virgin after all, to women who don't bleed on the wedding night, and to men and women who are not married to each other and have sex with one another willingly, the punishment depending on whether or not the woman was married or betrothed to another.

    In the case that the woman did bleed on the wedding night and her husband lied about it, the husband is to be "chastised" by the elders of the city and he must also pay the father of the bride a hundred shekels of silver, and he may never divorce her.

    If the wife was unfortunate enough not to bleed on the wedding night and the husband chooses to make an issue of it, the woman is to be stoned to death.

    In the case of either consentual or forcible sex, if neither was married and the woman was not betrothed, then they must marry and never divorce. If the woman was married or betrothed, if it was consentual sex, they would both be stoned, and if it was found to be rape, then only the man would be stoned.

    It's all pretty sickening, if you ask me. And Christians think times are bad now! How would they feel about going back in time a couple thousand years? NO THANK YOU!!
     
  18. cats Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    36
    The Bible is what man wanted to believe about himself and his ego. My sister says that God was thought to be a female and then the men started to put women down and made God a man.
    She said if God was a man then why send an angel to Mary to concieve Jesus, if it actualy happened. You notice the Bible is against anything which interfers with having children to growup and be a mighty army and gather much wealth from business. The people who wrote the Bible were only giving their ideas on what they saw and understand and back then they did not have the knowledge of space and spaceflight and other sciences so God was claimed to have down it. The church fathers in the 14 to 16 century, translated the Bible to fit their ideas and ignored the fact that some of the original Hebrew and Greek words had two meanings. The word for worship also means to work for the Gods.
     
  19. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    I have more questions. I know you all must be shocked, but I am a veritable wellspring of questions!

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    Isaiah 9:6 states that, "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    The Prince of Peace? Hmmmmmm. Now let's skip ahead to Matthew 10:34-36:

    34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

    35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

    36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

    Does this seem to be a contradiction of prophesy to anyone else? Also, although the birth of the Christ child was predicted in the Old Testament, why can't I find anything in the Old Testament about the Antichrist? In the New Testament, the Antichrist was described as one who would show signs and wonders, and would require man to worship him. If we pick up where we left off in Matthew, it would seem that Jesus is certainly requiring man to worship him:

    37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

    Does anyone else think this way? I know we have been discouraged from even mentioning such things with threats of hell fire and eternal damnation, but in my case I really feel I'm damned either way, since I could never consent to being anyone's slave for all of eternity - so I'm just saying what's really on my mind, and would like to hear what others think about this.
     
  20. H-kon Registered Senior Member

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    Excellent job Searcher

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    Flash if you are reading this still, some of these verses are the ones that i sent you ( sword, and the one under that)

    I bet that Lori has a lot of things to say if she enters this thread again.
    --------

    I too agree with you, why would one want to follow such a religion when the message is not clear, or is it?

    Quite disturbing now isn't it?
     
  21. Flash Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    771
    I agree with you H-kon..searcher did a great
    job. One of my main concerns has always been that the Bible has many contradictions.
    So many just pass it off saying the meaning
    is there still...but how can that be. As
    Searcher pointed out did Jesus bring peace or
    a sword?
    Searcher, that is a very good question regarding Jesus being the anti-christ..not
    to mention the bible says he will return again..if this is so.. Jesus could very
    well be. I have been pondering this very
    same thought for a few days now..funny how
    you bring it up. I think it is a valid
    and bold question.
     
  22. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    1,122
    Searcher,

    Yeah, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 have a tendency to burn some people up. It is my understanding, though, that these particular verses reflect the discipline of later churches and are among a number of verses in 1 Corinthians that are considered to be interpolations. (One of the reasons why we should not, in my opinion, take excerpts from the Bible in their literal sense and one of the reasons why I am not a big fan of "organized" religion).

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  23. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Searcher,

    With respect to 2 Corinthians 6:1-8* (with particular attention to 8)...

    'Tis confusing the translation presented above... The following translation might help clear matters up:

    "8 through glory and dishonor, insult and praise. We are treated as deceivers and yet are truthful..."

    This is just the beginning of a series of seven rhetorically effective antitheses, contrasting the negative external impressions with the positive inner reality of the apostolic experience.

    I hope this helps.
     

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