Trans vs feminists: Are Trans women women?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mrs.Lucysnow, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Bells Staff Member

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    And you don't think transgender women have any baggage? You don't think what they experience can be what other women go through?

    You'd do well to remember that transgender men and women have also suffered the weight of "unequal history". And they are still enduring it, just as women, minorities and other members of the LGBT community are. I mean, look at you right now. You refer to Caitlyn Jenner as a "he", you can't even refer to her by her name. And you don't think you are a bigot? You continuously try to deny their very existence.

    That's because it is hate speech.

    You deny their existence, you refuse to acknowledge them for who they are, you disparage them and dismiss them, you infer that they pose a risk to women and children, you compared them to people who were severely mentally ill. And you don't think it's hate speech? I'll be blunt, replace transgender with African American or Jew or Muslim or Asian in your post, and then tell me it's not hate speech.

    Those two sentences that you posted did not come from the Guardian. They came from a blog that you did not link to.

    You have been peppering quotes from these sites into your posts without referencing them. It's called plagiarism. Please stop doing it.

    It would help if you stopped relying on right wing religious websites and bigoted blogs for your information.

    Transgender specific laws do not protect or offer protection for men who are posing as women to enter bathrooms and shelters, Lucysnow. Understand yet? Those laws exist to protect transgender men and women. Do you understand that part yet?

    What am I asking, you can't even bring yourself to admit or say that a transgender woman is a "she"...

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  3. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    I object to the proposition that transgender should be expected to answer for a cisgender pervert. Think about it, under the pretense of proving what's wrong with transgender, Christian activists↗ start sending cisgender, straight men into women's facilities to harass women and girls. And you want to blame transgender why?

    No, really, because when people posit their objection with no support whatsoever, and the defining body does the courtesy of reiterating the point with a straight face, and then the activists start harassing women and girls according to their own debunked objection, the perverts we ought to be worrying about are the ones we actually know about, which happens to be the religious zealots.

    So, you know, a bunch of Christians with their hands over their ears screaming Jesus was a little lamb little lamb little lamb lalalalalala as their goddamn excuse to sexually harass girls and women is a bunch of perverts calling themselves Christian while harassing girls and women. Fuck all does a bunch of sex predators calling themselves Christian have to do with transgender? Oh, right, they're using transgender as an excuse for their predation↗. And you would give them cover, Mrs.Lucysnow?

    Why? What's the gamble? What do you think you get out of empowering such dangerous people?
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Lucy,

    I get it, it is rather fun watching you all go at each other. None of you are solution orientated you just want to bitch and talk about how much more virtuous you are over each other, while I assume tiassa and bells would have no problem with unisex restrooms, changing rooms and shelters, assuming they have private stalls and rooms, their angle is merely to say your evil.

    Anyways your argument over a private stall is that it would be too much of a building code change, and adding handicap ramps and elevators was not? Your other argument is that perverts will get in, which they already do and get arrest for as you yourself have cited, so nothing changes by having unisex facilities. Your final argument I guess is the rate at which perverts get in would increase, even if that was so, so be the cost of freedom I say. If it was up to me people would freely walk around naked if they want to, and your unconformable at seeing them is your problem, not theirs, if you want to wear cloths, wear cloths, if you want to change in private, use a private stall... what is the problem? What the perverts? There is always going to be perverts, ignore or jail them, problem fixed.
     
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  7. Neddy Bate Valued Senior Member

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    The republican state legislatures' approach to this issue was not very "solution oriented" either. Had their proposed bathroom bills become law, they would have forced masculine, bearded dudes to use the ladies room, (if they were born female). I don't think that would have made the likes of MrsLucysnow very happy, and she would be complaining that they should just use the men's room instead.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    A different scene: Click to see a fake woman using the potty.

    Arbitrary disparagement from uneducated conservatives is hardly new, but one of your tells, ElectricFetus, is the perpetual willful dismissal of other people, their experiences and reasons, as mere or random↗. Running around boasting your lack of good faith—("I get it, it is rather fun watching you all go at each other")—is probably not the best way to find the solutions you never have and don't actaully want.

    Sometimes the solution is that perverts need to stop making excuses to harass women and girls.

    No, really. Sometimes it really is that freakin' obvious.

    It's like the bit I do↗ about the movie Airplane! and how people just line up for the chance to show cruelty. We can always tell when it's done as poorly as Mrs.Lucysnow's appeal; they always present old issues, like the bathroom harassment campaign, as if nobody has ever heard of it before. They don't actually care what's going on, because their point is whatever pathetic excuse they can make in order to say stupid and cruel stuff yet again. They get a rush out of it.

    But you already know this, since you have your own version of revisiting human rights; a general tell among your ilk, and we see it with Mrs.Lucysnow, or Bowser↗, on these issues much like we see it from you about pretty much anything, these days, an apparent ignorance of history and humanity that indicts either their comprehension of the issue or faculties as an individual.

    It's why people don't believe you're a liberal or Democrat or pretty much anything else you pretend to be. It's why people don't think of Mrs.Lucysnow as a feminist. A moment from literary pedagogy: The late Jack Cady used to try to explain to young writers a point about preaching and judgment, and it would take another encounter with the lesson, years later, and badly taught, to help me figure out what he meant, and I still can't teach the point, but that's also to be expected since the first thing he told new students in his writing class was to never trust writing teachers. But he used an archetype at the time, talking about something else entirely, that described a feeble-minded but well-intended person, and Americans born in '38 knew more of these types than Generation X, who in turn had plenty of exposure but were far too self-absorbed to notice. He described a person who would, now and then, learn a new word or idea, and that would become their Word for the Day, as if it was some bauble that needed to be shown off in a look-how-smart-I-am appeal we might describe stylistically as post-Steinbeck, and the question becomes how to write that character without judgment when we hold his simlicity as something alien to ourselves and therefore inaccessible except through projection while our neurotic impulse tends toward disgust or revulsion, thus rendering empathy judgmental and condemning. The problem is that if there is a moral to the story, write a goddamn editorial; it also helps, interestingly, to consider Tim O'Brien on the telling of war stories, but in the end it was a paperback mystery writer vaguely explaining that he learned from a Hollywood script doctor to give those problems to your characters, which in turn I should note I just saw Brust and White get away with in the most absurd of manners.

    Still, I always wonder, when people show up some time later and want to give it another go, as Mrs.Lucysnow seems to do with her focus on Moralism as an excuse to sexually harass, or clearly failing to understand the dangers of playing in disgraced corners of second-wave feminism in search of conservative solace; or, you know, as plenty of others do in trying to explain the need for economic justice to stratify so that some get more or less justice than others.
     
  9. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    Undisputed (something) of a trans man using a public restroom.,
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    ... ummm and you have good faith?

    How do you make them?

    I don't think your seeing Lucy as a human being, but rather a prop in your on poorly made comedy movie. Lucy's argument is that she is afraid and uncomfortable with transgender people in her restroom because of perverts among them. You can't change Lucy's feelings, they are feelings, not rational arguments, solution is for her to get a private stall.

    Blah blah blah, do you agree with unisex bathrooms or not?

    And I care what you think?

    She says he a feminist, I take her word for it. She clearly is trying to defend women from what she perceives as a threat, claims she to speak for all women and elevates theirs/her comfort above all else... Typical feminist. You and Bells on the other hand are of the 3rd wave virtue signalling feminist that needs to find all oppression no matter how small, no matter what bigger problems there are, and using somekind of oppression scale separate victim from evil oppressor. Achieving nothing but a stroking of your ego.

    What the fuck does this mean???

    You still strawmanning me with that, again do you want to win elections and get any justice for anyone? Or would you rather the republicans control everything with trump as president, clearly you rather have trump. Your tactic here with lucy is a clear example of your failed strategy: attack her, shame her, invalidate her will not change her mind, it will only make her more recalcitrant, and make you and the left look like assholes.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    To reiterate: I always wonder, when people show up some time later and want to give it another go. It's just this thing that happens. People show up and do the same old argument we've heard before, and maybe they've updated their list of talking points to include the latest historically inaccurate and inarticulate buzzshit, and on this occason from the camp that spends far too much time thinking about other people's genitals.

    You might be the only person here pretending her mind can be changed. And the only problem about whether or not anyone can change Mrs.Lucysnow's feelings is that her feelings are her business except that she went out of her way to share the hate, so, you know, if she reads like two-bit slapstick, there's a reason.

    I would say the really fun part is watching the both of you misrepresent feminism, but there's no point in lying for the sake of a punch line, as there is nothing entertaining about your sympathy for bullies.

    And, look: Reinforcing the stereotypes that imprison women within society itself just isn't feminism.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    You do this, you do this constantly, same old argument over and over again, with a few paragraphs of mindless ranting throw in as subterfuge. Utter projection on your part.

    Is that aimed at me, the guy that openly says "I don't give a fuck, just have unisex bathrooms, problem over"? Again I ask you: do you have a problem with unisex restrooms. Just a "yes" or "no" answer please.

    Oh no her mind can be changed! To change it though requires a good understanding of psychology and realization that directly attacking her character will only cause her to double down. You first say you hear her concerns, you respect her as a human being, you present a solution to her concern (private stalls) you counter her objections (we built ramps handicap ramps and elevators, we can make all bathrooms unisex), she sits back and thinks about out calmly and unemotionally and eventually accept it.

    Oh I don't represent feminism, I'm a man, I can't be a feminist, that what I was told by my professor of women studies when I took that class back in college. Feminism has a huge range of philosophies crammed under its umbrella, many of which clearly conflict as you and Lucy demonstrate.

    Also again with your projection about bullying: You who bullies others, calls them bigots and hateful to virtue signal and feel good about yourself, while only calcifying the opposition.

    what? What ever Lucy is, is Lucy, that has no bearing on other women, what ever Bells is, is Bells, that has no bearing on other women. Can you stop thinking that any qualities of one woman has some bearing on other women, that is kind of sexist.
     
  13. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  14. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Virtue signaling? You are a ridiculous human being.
     
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    That not a counter arguement.

    How about this restroom design?

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  16. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    It's about respect, not structuring the environment so you don't have to think about it.
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    So would you say no to civil rights in the 1960's because getting rid of segregation was just a structural change?

    Look you can't make people like Lucy respect transgender people, just as we can make racist, not racist, but we can change laws and the very physical environment to provide equality.
     
  18. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Segregation was the structural change.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    That what I said, yes.
     
  20. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    You said getting rid of segregation was the structural change, which is the opposite.
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    So this is some semantic game your playing.

    Look do you have a problem with uni-sex restrooms or not?
     
  22. birch Valued Senior Member

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    Thats a right restroom. Free-running, high end faucets and completely privatized stalls. Solves most problems. Just need a couple security cameras, and that would cover it all.
     
  23. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well no cameras inside the stalls, but sure ones that look over the sinks, hand drier, not the baby changer (no pedo).

    Look I have shit in "restrooms" in africa , consisting of a hole in the ground and a wall made of reeds... we got it fucking good.
     

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