Travel times between Egypt and the Promised Land

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ted Grant II, Dec 12, 2016.

  1. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Everybody knows that it took 40 years for Moses, to lead the Children of Israel, to the Promised Land from Egypt. Along the way, they put to the sword many thousands of men, women and children with the help of their God. Their God showed the way, as a pillar of cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. He provided food and water. He delivered the enemies into their hands.

    This is what happened at the end of the journey as recorded apparently, by Moses himself...

    "And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho and the Lord shewed him all the land...and the Lord said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham...I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
    So Moses, the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab...and he buried him in a valley...but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day."

    Note: "unto this day" suggests the story was written a long time after the events portrayed.
    It is difficult to believe that Moses recorded his death and burial several years later.

    In the New Testament, Matthew chapter 2 verses 13 onward, we learn this...

    "...behold, the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt and be thou there until I bring thee word, for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him! When he (Joseph) arose, he took the young child and his mother by night and departed into Egypt and was there until the death of Herod (in 4 B.C.) that it may be fulfilled which is spoken by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son (see note 1 below).
    (later)...and he arose and took the young child and his mother and came into the land of Israel
    ...And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which is spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene (see note 2 below)".

    Note 1 :- This is a quote from the book Hosea chapter 11 which reads as follows...
    "When Israel was a child, then I loved him and called my son out of Egypt. As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim and burned incense to graven images."

    The "son" in this passage is clearly the Children of Israel and refers to the Exodus from Egypt.

    Note 2:- The reference to Nazarite (not Nazarene) might be from Judges Chapters 13 and 16.
    Here is an extract...
    "For lo, thou shalt conceive and bear a son and no rasor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb and he shall deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines"

    A quick reading of Judges chapter 13 (which is really really revealing and exciting) tells us the name of the child - his name was Samson.

    There are people, who are able to explain away these apparent difficulties, by juggling with words and translations to make them OK. It's not easy, but they manage to do it, because they are determined to maintain the integrity of the Holy Scriptures, probably because their income depend on it . But to us mere mortals, it looks like the gospel writers mined the Old Testament for anything to use when composing their stories. Anyway, enough of this nitpicking. On to my main question...

    So Moses took 40 years for the one way journey and Joseph managed to travel twice the distance in a short time and hang about in Egypt to wait for Herod to die. We know it was a short time because the child was still young when they got back to Israel. Moses was 120 years old when he got to the Promised Land.
    We are not told how Joseph, Mary and the young child traveled. Little donkey, perhaps?

    So, why was Moses so slow (navigated by God) and Joseph was so quick?
     
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  3. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Because it's all fiction.
     
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  5. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    I wonder how many times the kids asked "Are we there yet?"
     
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  7. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    Ok..serious answer. It's because the god of the OT was a complete dick to his "people". Moses sent out 12 spies to recon the land of Canaan to find out about what crops grow there, how strong the people that live there are...etc. There were to be gone 40 days. 10 of spies came back and said the people who lived there were too strong for the Israelites to defeat...only 2 said it was "doable". The Isreaelites believed the majority of the spies...which makes sense. They are recently freed slaves with no military training, no army, probably only basic weapons to go up against established nations.

    This pissed god off, so he cursed the 10 spies with a plague and killed them, and sentenced the entire group of Isreaelites to wander the wilderness for 40 years. Hey! thanks god for freeing us from slavery in Egypt only to get butthurt because were a little worried about fighting without an army, and now we have to walk around the desert for 40 years, until the generation that pissed you off dies. You're such a loving god.

    Of course, it's all just Bravo Sierra. I mean, think about it. You're a recently freed slave, and someone tells you you're going to get to live in the "promised land" then a month later they come back to you and tell "you remember that promised land we told you about? Fuck you, you can't go...you're going to wander the desert for 40 years." The Isrealites would have told Moses to go fuck the camel he rode in on, packed up their shit, and made their own way to some other place to settle down.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2016
  8. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    There was a saying among Hebrews : instead of saying it have taken LONG TIME the saying was IT HAVE TAKEN 40 YEARS
     
  9. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I once saw a speculation that Moses deliberately wandered around because the Jews who grew to adults in Egypt had been slaves, whose personality was not suitable to fighting for a place to live.

    After 40 years an entire new generation would have been born without the slave personality.
     
  10. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    If you would be smarter you would see they had and have same border along the Sinai desert
     
  11. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    There were no national borders at that time.
     
  12. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    So how do you explain Midianites were south of Moabites, Egyptians military was edge west of the golf of Aqaba
     
  13. RuneSpider Registered Senior Member

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    It's also a fairly small area of land, and they had a God on their side that led them to slaughter and rape and pillage theiron surroundings.
     
  14. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    Assuming there were no borders, why would that change the travel time?
    It seems to me that if Moses was guided by God, he wasn't very good. Surely, given the power of God, who could move mountains just by speaking, it should have been a small job to get the Chosen People to the Promised Land in a few days without any need to kill all the sitting tenants. I think people underestimate the power of God.
     
  15. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Seriously, has nobody here read the Bible? It says explicitly why the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness for forty yesrs:
    The older generation had disobeyed God, so they were no worthy to enter the Promised Land.
     
  16. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    How about this way . The Jews were practically Egyptian culture , they lived there for several century. If you want to erase the customs it would be necessary to let the mentality vanish and so probably wath happen .
    So the new generation was a free mentality to enter into the promised land.
     
  17. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    145
    But didn't the next generation disobeyed God too ?
    It seems likely, given the prevalence of inherited sin.
    Remember the Midianite baby boys were killed because Moses thought they would grow up to be just as bad as the grownups.
    (the baby girls were kept for some odd reason).
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    That isn't why the first born sons were killed. They were killed to punish their father's.
     
  19. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I didn't say it was a good plan. I'm just pointing out what the story says. If you had bothered to read the story, you would have known that and you wouldn't have started this topic.
     
  20. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    In the book of Numbers, chapter 31, the Midianite fathers (with no apostrophe, notice) were killed first.
    The women, children etc. were brought back as booty.
    This was clearly not what they were told to do, because Moses addresses them as follows...

    "Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    They killed the women because they "enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful".
    They also killed the boys, although no reason is given above. It's obviously not a punishment of the fathers, as they were already dead.
    The justification given by some believers is that the boys (including baby boys of course) would grow up to be as evil as their (already) dead fathers.
    This is why it was good to kill them. Their mothers were also killed, because they were even more evil than the men (allegedly) !

    It's interesting that the boys were killed for future crimes, but that didn't apply to the virgin girls.
    One could argue that the girls would grow up to be as evil as their mothers, who we are told, were worse than the men
    Logically, therefore, there is more justification for killing the girls, than the boys.
    However, I suppose the soldiers had another motive that was more important than any logical considerations.

    I wonder how the soldiers determined which ones to kill and which ones to save for themselves ?
    And why did they assume that all women had slept with a man ?
    Some commentators claim, that the virgin girls were kept as slaves and not for any evil purpose.
    That idea, of course, is spurious. It also suggests that slavery is not evil.
    Why would virginity be a qualification for slavery ?

    Yes, sideshowbob, I know I'm supposed to just take the story as is, no questions asked etc.
     
  21. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    145
    You're right, I have read the story, more than once.
    It clearly says why the journey took so long and in retrospect I shouldn't have bothered starting this topic.
    I've wasted your time, my time and others.
    I thought it was a fun topic, but now I hate it.
    Please accept my apology.
     
  22. Ted Grant II Registered Senior Member

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    145
    Thanks for your answer. I've read it a few times and each time I chuckle. It's kept me amused all day. If only the Bible scribes had had your way with words.
     
  23. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    If I didn't want to waste my time correcting people on the Internet, I wouldn't.

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