Trump Signs Executive Order withdrawing US from TPP

An industrial economy may have been a one time deal. When it's gone, it's gone.

 

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fuck them! Why would I a "capitialist" want to give away my money paying people to do "make-work" when I could have robots do it instead? Worse why would my competitor not automate and one up me with a cheaper product?

Your encourageable, but I'm talking about a world where capitalism has gone the way of feudalism.

 

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Well, sure. You could just say "fuck everyone" and not give a shit as long as you get yours. (Conservatives do that all the time.)

Because as a capitalist you might want capitalism to continue.

These would not be jobs offered by your competitors; they would be jobs offered by the government in lieu of welfare or a basic income.

Hey, if someone comes up with a better system than capitalism, great. So far every attempt to replace it has failed miserably.

 

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No people do that.

Oh but you want the government to tax the fuck out of me to pay people to do the equivalent of moving boulders up and down hills?

So let me get this straight, I get taxed so that instead of buying a robot to clean my toilet, I get a cleaning person, paid for and accountable to the government, who may or may not want to clean toilets but has to day in and day out to get a check?

Every attempt to replace feudalism in the between 11th and 13th century also failed, what is your point?

Ok here is a capitalistic alternative: give everyone stock and bonds in everything, once every citizens owns all the capital they can live off the dividends as the machines replace all their labor. So in short everyone's "job" will be to manage their stock and investment portfolio, which they may or may not hand off to an AI to do for them. So now that poor bum forced to clean toilets for money in your solution can simply live off the dividends from toilet cleaning robots.

 

I've met some of them. They do indeed exist.

Nope.

Nope.

That if you want to replace capitalism, come up with a better option _first._

Then there is no longer any link between anything tangible and money. Money becomes unvalued, and capitalism fails.

That's equivalent to the equally foolish "well, if the government can print money, why not just give everyone a million dollars? Poverty will be instantly eliminated!" Similar result.

 

Circa 3 decades ago, an ex employee, John, took a job in a furniture factory(at maybe 1/2 what he had earned with me). His wife was a computer programmer, and computers were standard in their house. The factory had a Computer Numeric Control machine that nobody had been able to fully tame/train/understand. So, he took the manual home and went over it with his "in house" programing expert. Soon, he was promoted to running that machine, which placed him in charge of the guys who brought the raw materials to the infeed side, and those who took the shaped materials to the assembly area.

Most of the jobs were still there, but the skilled sawyers and layout guys were no longer needed. Production increased, space was retasked, and the business prospered.

A tad over 4 decades ago, I was a member of the AAW. The union fought for jobs which meant that they fought against machines taking over jobs. Short term gain for long term loss.

Embracing evolution in all things seems to make the most sense.

 

Well of course they exist, but not just conservatives.

Well that is the outcome of what you propose.

I did, tax the robots to pay everyone with a basic income guarantee. We can gradually implement it by taxing corporations based on how much they make and how many employees/shareholders they have, thus taxing automation. Doing so would in the short term also "make work" as you want by encouraging a slow down in automation until human labor costs more than robot labor plus tax. If machines do reach and surpass humans in all ways then we will have to pay people simply to exist, one way or another, either that or exterminate the useless meat.

First of all, so what if capitalism fails? Do pets need to work in a capitalist society to survive, no. Humans take care of them and pets leave it to humans to work out how that is done, likewise I'm proposing that one day we will be taken care of by machines and we will leave it to machines to figure out the details.

No, the money is actually attached to value: the value of automated labor. Consider Saudi Arabia as an example, the citizens basically live off the petroleum subsidies, most of the workforce are foreigners that some saudi citizens treat like slaves because they can. Now imagine the same thing but with robots instead of foreign workers and robots doing all the mining and all the production of everything.

 

Definitely agree there. Most, but certainly not all.

No, I do not want the government to "tax the fuck out of you" or anyone.
No, I do not want the government to pay people to move boulders up or down hills, or indeed do anything pointless.

Mass starvation, war, disease etc etc. Unless you have a better system ready to go, of course.

True. Most are imprisoned for life, and are exterminated wholesale if there are too many of them. Might work for people too, although I would not want to live in such a society.

Good example. Petroleum has a real value; it exists and can replace human labor by providing energy. Automated labor has no such value.

If:
-robots were also consumers
-robots had rights similar to those of humans
-they were somewhat limited in number

then that might work. But that's just setting up a second parallel capitalistic society, not "replacing capitalism."

 

So I guess that is a "I don't want to argue anymore".

Yet that is the outcome of what you want.

I have a better system.

Hey you can live as a pet, join an Amish/Luddite colony or upload into the machine and become immortal, those are your choices if you live to the 22nd century.

Let me get this straight, a machine the can build anything, including power plants, as well as more of its self. Mine, process, design, build, transport and sell, everything... has no value? That is like owning a nation of slaves and claiming they have no value!

What if:
1. How about robots don't consume anything they don't produce for themselves, as in they don't use money amongst themselves, or even think individually, everything to them is about optimizing service to humans.
2. They have no rights, they feel no pain (though they try to avoid unnecessary damage) the desire only to obey and please humans.
3. They outnumber people by a magnitude.

 

??? Argue? I was agreeing with you.

I guess we are done here. Once you start substituting my arguments with strawmen of your own creation, not much left to discuss.

 

What's worse? Buying an American car made in America? Or buying an American car made in Mexico? Answer: both choices are bad. I'm glad there are other choices.