Turn the other cheek or practice self-defense.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Cris, Nov 23, 2005.

  1. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    How about *you* accepting that you don't agree with the Christians?
    How about *you* accepting that you indeed think that you won't see eye to eye?
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  3. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

    What, and have no fun?
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  5. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

    God bless you.

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  7. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Get real.
  8. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member

    "Get real."

    * Why don`t *you* get real?
  9. water the sea Registered Senior Member

    Thank you for reminding me of my imperfections.
  10. Adstar Valued Senior Member

    Indeed He has. May you be blessed also.

    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
  11. Einstuck Registered Senior Member

    I strongly admire Adstar's enthusiasm, but not his doctrine:
    But it is a difficult task, walking the line between self-defence and passive resistance.

    Well said.

    But I don't think either Adstar or c20H can come to an accurate concensus by ignoring each other. It is not so simple as 'New Covenant'/'Old Covenant', or Law vs. Grace. Both extremes are false, non-Christian theologies.

    One is Calvinism, a distortion and perversion of the doctrine of grace.

    The Other, Phariseeism, a distortion and perversion of the nature, purpose, and power of the Law.

    Adstar will have to concede that operating under the guidance and submission to the Holy Spirit, he will never be led to break a commandment of the true Law of God, in Spirit or in the flesh.

    His opponent will have to concede that no one can keep the Law in its true Spirit without the power, guidance, and submission to the Holy Spirit.

    Here, in this central meetingplace of sound doctrine, they can agree to agree.

    c20Hs questions which are raised by the issue of the status of the Old Testament Law concerning the killing of a bandit during a home invasion, is an important and worthy subject to discuss. And surely relevant to the topic here.
  12. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    You don't seem to appreciate exactly what the ark was. It might be a silly reason to you, but it wasn't for Israel or their enemies. Can you remember what happened when the Philistines took the ark? (1 Samuel 6). The ark was the means of salvation; the object of their whole religion, as the very presence of God among them. It was as holy and sacred as Jesus' own body after his resurrection.

    Uzzah was punished, and David was just as unhappy about it as you are (2 Sam. 6:8), but what makes you think his death was worse than dying of old age, peacefully in his sleep? Or do you think Uzzah will not join Jesus at the resurrection? God did not want him to die, which is why He made laws stipulating exactly how the ark should be handled. Not even the priests were allowed to touch it - they had to carry it on poles (not on a cart, as was the case here) that may not be removed (Ex. 25:15).

    God said He does not want anyone to die. That does not mean He said He will not punish sin. Sin is by definition doing something that is against God's will. I don't know how you can say there is a contradiction.
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2005
  13. john smith Tongue in cheek Registered Senior Member

    Well, if God is supposedly 'omipotent' ( that does mean all powerful, doesnt it?), then he should of been 'able' to 'create' us without having faults such as 'sin', dont you agree? Therefore there IS a definite contradiction.

    Out of curiosity, are you a practicing christian? :m:
  14. Einstuck Registered Senior Member

    I think you may be commiting an error of compression here.
    God may indeed be 'creating us' without faults.
    But there is no a priori reason that He should do it instantly,
    or for everyone. As an Artist Supreme, God may choose to take a unique and detailed lifetime to perfect everyone He chooses to.
  15. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member


    And making many errors on the way, right? But then practice makes perfect.

    No indeed, it took all of 6 days to create the universe – must have seemed like a veritable age for an omnipotent god.

    Well of course – it must have its fun destroying people’s lives and making them miserable. There is no a priori reason that a god must be good.

    And take enormous pleasure tormenting the rest. What a wonderful deity you envision!
  16. LadyCelticMoonMagic Registered Member

    The Impact of Christianity Response,
  17. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    What is your standard for measuring these "errors"?

    More likely it seems like billions of years for us.

    Sin destroys life, not God. He preserves it, despite suffering, sin and mortal death - even if He allows such afflictions, it shows us the real weight of sin and the consequences of injustice. Man's misery is a direct result of the selfishness in him, and a god envisioned in the image of such men will obviously be a projection of us at our worst. If we become bitter to the point of cursing God, we only confess ourselves cornered without hope, and that we sorely need a merciful God. Wherever we seek Him then, it most certainly will not be possible to find Him without faith in who He revealed himself to be.

    The "enormous pleasure" is your own invention, and the deity you're talking about is the one you envision. It's one thing to ridicule our beliefs for what they are, but another to imagine we believe in your image of God.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2005
  18. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    The same faculties that allow us to do good allow us to sin, so it's not a question of perfection, but abuse. What we regard as perfect might not be what God considers perfect.

    If you take a perfectly good bath with your perfectly functioning toaster, and get electrocuted, do you blame the water or General Electric for their shortcomings? What's wrong with you is not how you were made, but what you did with what you were given.
  19. Jenyar Solar flair Valued Senior Member

    I agree. I think Adstar's exclusionary approach is unfortunate and unnecessary. C20's sense of responsibility for his family is certainly not selfish. But there is definitely a fine line, one only God's guidance can allow one to walk with a pure conscience.

    A real life example of why Adstar's point may be valid: A local farmer, conscious of a crime wave where farmers and their families are tortured, raped and killed to intimidate them from their land, hears a suspicious noise outside at the early hours of the morning. He decides to take action and fires a shot from his bedroom window. It turns out that he fatally wounded his only daughter, who was leaving early to surprise a friend on his birthday.

    This is not self-defence as we mostly imagine it, but it falls under the same category. In similar cases, we usually read of the farmer trying to protect his daughter while his wife is being raped or while he is being beaten with a spade, or trying to stop someone's bleeding while others go to find help because the phone lines have been cut. In all circumstances, these people - mostly devout Christians - would rather have that the dogs or the fences prevented unlawful entrance, or that they were able to overpower the terrorists before any damage was done, but it should not be easy to say they should sit idly by while war is waged on them over a period of years. That is why governments, peace forces, courts of justice and laws are set up in the first place - these are legitimate forms of authority, granted by God.

    That farmer is spending years in prison for manslaughter now, mourning his only daughter, and with his wife left in the care of family. Adstar's approach would have prevented that tragedy. But another farmer has managed to overpower three armed intruders with the help of a farmhand, successfully saving the life of his whole family.

    Who are the victims, and who will God justify? Laws prevent people from taking vengeance and being a law unto themselves, but they don't regulate who slaps whom on which cheek. When we have a choice, and while we can deliberate and set down legal procedures, we know what to do. Our faith allows us to identify and bear inequity and persecution and injustice, even to the point of death. But it can also allow us to know when the time is right to protect ourselves: such times do come (Eccles. 3:1-8), but "woe to the one through whom it comes".
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2005
  20. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

    This is OT right. So Paul already done away with that law, if you read the Bible. But even if we disregard this then you still have another problem.

    "turn the other cheek" what does it mean. If I slap you then don't slap back but "turn the other cheek". So I have already "broken in". Your quote doesn't stand because you only "turn the other cheek" when you have already been hit on one. Meaning that the thief has broken in.

    Peace be unto you

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  21. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member


    Errors of design – how about susceptibility to disease, and then add to the list anything else that’s goes wrong with the human form. Clearly not perfect.

    Yet only 6 days are listed.

    Something that is designed and then does not perform to specification after manufacture is a fault of the designer not the product.

    The hell concept makes that argument patently untrue.

    Most people aren’t miserable. Widespread misery is propaganda spread by Christianity to support their need to justify their mythical savior.

    LOL, only religionists will become bitter at a fantasy – that’s funny.

    Fortunately the real demonstrable knowledge we have been generating at an ever increasing pace does give us hope for a better future. Christianity remains a fantasy and has never provided anything real.

    Nonsense – we need to buckle down and solve our own problems as we are doing albeit slowly.

    No need to seek something we don’t need.

    A conviction that something is true without evidence remains just simple irrational delusion.

    Umm – that’s a paradox – if it revealed itself then you wouldn’t need faith.

    Something omnipotent does not need to do anything it doesn’t want. It can always arrange things to be perfect. The only reason that people would die and suffer is because it designed things that way. Why would it design it that way if it did not experience pleasure? You could perhaps argue that it designed things to fail so that it could experience misery – either way such an omnipotent entity controls all the strings and must necessarily end up with exactly what it desires. If people die and suffer then that is what it wanted. It cannot be otherwise if an omnipotent designer is claimed.

    I have no illusion that you do not believe my observation, I’m merely pointing out the inevitable irrational behavior of your creation if you insist your Christian mythology is true.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2005
  22. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    M*W: Jenyar, why are you so non-proactive? Your stance on xianity is lame. Is it because you are South Afrikkan? Or is it because you're a questionable xian? Laws are laws. Righteousness is rightous. But logic and reason are not part of your understanding.

    No one 'justifies' god, because 'god' doesn't exist. Jenyar, you waste so much time trying to prove there is a god when no one believes this could be so! If you're intelligent enough, you would realize that there is no such thing as xianity. What on Earth can xianity offer you? There is a limit to this madness. Xianity is not of this world. Xianity is a false religion. Why do you seek to find truth in it?
  23. stretched a junkie's broken promise Valued Senior Member


    Quote J:
    “but what makes you think his death was worse than dying of old age”

    * How much death have you personally seen Jenyar?

    The way you reason, its OK for Iraqis to die in Iraq. On the battlefield or in their sleep. Its all good. Its all Gods will. George B does not come in to this? Also you are condoning the death sentence for an honest mistake? Que?

    Quote J:
    “God said He does not want anyone to die. That does not mean He said He will not punish sin. Sin is by definition doing something that is against God's will. I don't know how you can say there is a contradiction.”

    * Your god is extremely insecure. An honest mistake, as described, is against gods will?

    Dad: Son, don’t you DARE touch that priceless painting or I will kill you!

    Son: Yes dad.

    (Earthquake occurs … painting slips off wall. Son steadies it.)

    Dad: Jees! I told you not to touch it! Die!

    * Explain to me clearly. What EXACTLY was/is the ark?

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