Two went to pray?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Tiassa, Sep 30, 1999.

  1. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I would appreciate comment regarding the following 17th century (I think) poem by Richard Crashaw:

    Two went to pray? Oh, rather say:
    One went to brag, th' other to pray.
    One stands up close and treads on high
    Where the other dares not set his eye.
    One nearer to God's altar trod,
    Th' other to the altar's God.

    Anyway, it's one of my favorite short poems. Thought I'd throw it out for y'all.

    thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
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  3. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    I like that poem. I've never heard it before, but then again I was raised Church of God (that was funny, and I'll expain).

    That poem is talking about how you're supposed to pray, and the sanctity of one's relationship with God. It's talking about why a lot of people can't stand Christians. The whole, "look at me, I'm praying! Arent' I special? Aren't I great? Look at how close me and God are!" It's about using your relationship with God for attention or fame or to fulfill some ego-driven need. The Bible says to pray on your knees in your closet, or something like that. But don't boast about it.

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  5. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    H - U - M - I - L - I - T - Y

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    Have a great day!
     
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  7. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    Hyphenized and in CAPITALS, no less...
     
  8. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Hey now,

    Humility is one of the most important things about "getting religion". It is key. I've tried to explain that to Boris about a zillion times or so, but he's not a big humility advocate. That's why he can't see the truth.

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  9. FyreStar Faithless since 1980 Registered Senior Member

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    Lori -
    It sounds like in your case, humility equals arrogance. If you and Boris are both beings with equal capability and potential, who are you tell him that he is unequivocly wrong? What incredible hubris do you have that you can hold a higher value on something known only in your mind as opposed to something real, definable, and observable? I pity you for your limitations in this.

    FyreStar


    [This message has been edited by FyreStar (edited October 05, 1999).]
     
  10. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Well thank you very much! The answer to that is only one thing, the Holy Spirit. I know that sounds like a load of crap to you, but it's true. You know, I'm sure that Boris is a nice person; maybe nicer than me. And he's obviously more well read on various scientific and historical topics. I suffer from the same afflictions of pride and egotism and frustration; I'm no Jesus, ok? When I speak of humility, I mean in relation to God, and the realization of who we are. Believe me, I have been humbled. I may not sound like it sometimes, but the reason I am such may have to do with the fact that I've sinned so much. We are all very lucky to be put in that situation really, though it may not seem like it at the time. To be truly humbled is often an opportunity to find the truth. All I'm saying is that to really seek the truth, you have to let go of your ego.

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  11. Plato Registered Senior Member

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    Lori,
    you first have to believe in God in order to feel small in respect to him. How can one feel humility in something that one doesn't believe in. I think you are turning the argument upside down.

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    "If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
    Isaac Newton
     
  12. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    No, now don't be tellin' me how it works now; you're certainly no authority are you? You are humbled without necessarily knowing why, and that is why you search for the truth. You may sense that there is something much greater than you in the whole scheme of life, or sense that even though you were convinced at one time that you knew just about everything there was to know, or you had determined the difference between right and wrong based upon your own perceptions, and then you find out you couldn't have been more wrong, but then why? You can feel humility without knowing why exactly, but it really does open one up to the truth if you choose to seek it out.

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  13. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    The Greatest in the Kingdom

    An argument arose among the disciples about which of them was the greatest. Jesus realized the intention of their hearts and took a child and placed it by his side and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me. For the one who is least among all of you is the one who is the greatest."
     
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Hello ... just thought I'd stick my nose back into this one.

    Plato: "you first have to believe in God in order to feel small in respect to him." I wanted to ask if you're confining your terms to apply to the God of Judeo-Christian faith. One of the benefits I received from exploring Wicca and other so-called pagan faiths was that I did not feel obliged to regard myself as a fecal speck in God's universe. I was not born onto God's bad side, I was not born subserviant to God. I was part of the Goddess in the same sense algae is part of the pond. I can feel as insignificant as I choose, but the structure itself collapses without my presence. That should not be taken to mean that I am so important to the world that it all ends when I do. I've left labeled religion behind me, though, so "God" is an academic term to me now. And in that sense I have come back to the notion of confining terms by realizing that as long as I accepted that God was an anthropomorphic being, alternately cheerleader and spanking parent, I feel nothing but subservient. When I made God the mystery itself, the quest to know God became equivalent to learning the subtleties of the marvelous universe in which we live. All I mean is that if those whose lives do not compel them to a specific faith continue to define themselves in terms of that faith, they have not truly escaped the perceived negative aspects of that faith. To apply faith: If you actively reject the Devil, you're still giving him air time.

    Lori: "You are humbled without necessarily knowing why, and that is why you search for the truth." I take it that you regard this humility without knowing why as a negative thing. I agree with your final statement, that truth does open up if you seek the reasons (or the humility itself). However, I'm wondering whether I'm reading you wrong because my question becomes: "Why does humility without knowing its reason seem negative?" It seems to me that being humble on command, needing a definitively superior force to cause submission, cheapens humility. For instance: Why do people cry at funerals? I guarantee you the dead person doesn't care; either they are dead and that's it, or they are with God--a situation which precludes petty earthly grief. So does that mean we're all crying in our greed? That we're crying because we don't get the benefit of that person?

    Likewise--Why do people follow religious rules so fervently? Do we feel that rules like the Ten Commandments are the path to a better society? Or do they take their weight from Godly threat? Do we obey God because it simply is the right thing to do? Or do we obey God because it is the profitable thing to do ... after all, who wants the Lake of Fire?

    ***

    There is a Wiccan philosophy called the Law of Threes that states whatsoever you do will reflect in your life thrice over. There are a number of ways to approach this. If I burn someone's house down and kill them, does that mean three members of my family will die horribly by fire? Probably not. But if I burn someone's house down I am shattering trust, inciting massive amounts of fear, and taking financial power from the community that must help repair the damage. Tell me that these things don't affect me, as the "arsonist".

    If I steal from friends, they will learn to steal from me. That's why I don't steal from friends--it's pointless attrition. But the one thing that I won't do is respect property at the stake of divine wrath.

    The flip-side, the looming Hell-threat, has motivated a lot of ugly faith in my lifetime. I well understand that the individual people of faith I meet may not reflect the grander symptoms of religious malady in the modern world; but I'm also wondering how this quiet minority expects the infidels to know they're there. After all: Christianity is PTL and anti-libertarian petitions; Islam appears violent, confused, and chaotic; Sikhs appear aggressive and violent; Satanists seem laughable; Wiccans appear to be too wrapped up in their faith .... Is it not up to those of the faith to shake off the stereotype their ill-bred brethren construct with blind enthusiasm?

    --thx,
    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  15. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa,

    I mean duh, really now, you would cry at a funeral because you will hopefully miss that person that has died???? Isn't that kind of elementary. Also, do you realize that the wicca beliefs are the exact beliefs that the Bible warns us of so vehemently? The religion of arrogance. Man=God. Uh, good luck with that, but you're in for a big ol' nasty surprise one day. That's why I call it the "fluffy religion". It parallels Christianity in regard to the application of spiritual laws, but instead of attributing them to God, attributes them to yourself. It's just like Christianity, but it disposes of the horrible thought of absolutes, and consequences, and judgement. No right, no wrong, just whatever feels good goes right? No consequences to your actions. I mean, if you f up and murder someone or rape someone or abuse a child, or commit adultery, well then, don't sweat it, you'll get another chance, and another chance, and another, and another. But the point is, that why does it even matter anyway, since there is no absolute right and wrong, who is to say the murder is wrong? Come on now, you're telling me you can't witness the benefits of following the 10 commandments? I know you're smarter than that???????

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  16. cats Registered Senior Member

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    If you will check and watch "Mysteries of the Bible" on A&E, they say a lot of the religions practices have come from the so called pagan practices. The cathedrals are shaped as were the towering trees the people worshipped under outdoors. The holy trinity was not added until about the 14 to 16 century by the so called church elders. I wonder how much of us created in the image of God is man's ego. The churches have tried to stop or kill anyone who discovered new proof or ideas which would change their commands of what they said. The ten commandments is almost a copy of the laws laid down before by the Sumerian king Hammurabi, spelling?. They say they found the actual Mount Sinai in Saudia Arabia. From the Bible it says God came down in fire and smoke and the ground shook. They say the top of this sight is blackened and has been exposed to great heat.
    This sounds like a rocket ship landing and taking off. Remember the launches from the cape and the water to cool the pad afterward.
    The aliens are not satan but have egos like us and think they can interfer in our lives like gods. They may have been created before us and others were too and then we were and now they are guiding us in their own mind.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Lori--

    How does one "whistle" in surprise?

    What do you "miss" about that dead person? What they gave you. Whatever happiness that was, be it money, a smile, a feeling of lightness, the sound of their voice. Whatever. But it's greed ... you want what you cannot have any more.

    And I might wonder, if it doesn't upset you too much, why Christmas was moved to late December, Easter placed in the spring ... what's All Hallows' Eve? Groundhog Day is even an old pagan holiday.

    And I always wonder why a Christian with their dander up always assumes things? Your slander of Wiccan philosophy is tasteless and pushes the near edge of bigotry. True, Wiccan is oriented for a less organized, less urban society, but it hardly dismisses consequences.

    As a matter of fact that tripe about disposing of "the horrible thought of absolutes, and consequences, and judgement ...," stands out as one of the most ridiculous assertions I've read here. I mean you saw "Wiccan" and stopped reading. Hello? Don't you find it odd that, in response to an example regarding the Wiccan notion of consequence, your counterpoint is that Wiccans don't have any notion of consequences?

    Let your prejudices go .... Who tells you about Wiccan philosophy? Salvation pamphlets from the Chick ministry?

    And your downright dumbest attempt at insult was asking me the benefit of following the Ten Commandments. How many times have I written, through various threads, that, aside from the Godly arrogance commandments, I rather think they are a wonderful guide to living. Oh, wait, you saw "Wiccan" and all logic went out the window.

    Tiassa

    PS--About the "relgion of arrogance" ... what is so arrogant about assuming that, as humans, we are part of nature and subject to its ways? After all, I think arrogance is saying that you have a God that is separate from nature somehow, which makes you separate from nature, which means the earth and its bounty are for human dominion. Manifest Destiny?

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  18. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa,

    I was answering the question right? Why do people cry at funerals? So I told you why. Yes, it is for what they meant to you, what they contributed to your life while they were here. I didn't say it wasn't selfish, but you know, there's nothing wrong with missing a family member. RIGHT????????? I feel equally as good about someone dying who is going to live with Jesus. Almost jealous, which is equally as "fleshy". Don't try to deny that you are of the flesh; as we all are. You are not special, and you cry at funerals like the rest of us.

    And about the wicca thing, listen chicky, God is not nature; God created nature. There's a difference. And believe me sweety, as much as it feeds your ego, you are not and will not ever be God. We commune with God if we're smart, but you're never gonna be Him. What is your answer to the evil which is described as Satan in the Bible? Let me guess....you believe the verses that fit your lifestyle, and reject the ones that don't. Satan isn't metaphorical. He's real; and he's really the one who wants you to believe that Jesus is not the Christ. By the way....has he won you over by chance? Cha-ching.

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Lori:

    Yes, people cry because THEY have lost something. This is greed. Nothing more. You, personally, have attached the negative connotation to greed which makes the notion so offensive. Yes, death saddens me. But at least I am conscious my mourning is for my own loss.

    So listen up, Toots ... first off, God itself is faith. "God created nature", certainly is different from "God is nature." Okay, Babe? But either one is a faith statement.

    You write things like, "We commune with God, if we're smart, but you're never gonna be him." Okay, Honey, I can agree with that. However, where your Pretty Li'l faith diverges from mine is when you say that God must look like this, or act like this, or otherwise limit Itself within the universe to fit your petty, bigoted notions. Or I could say, Darling, that your petty, bigoted notions are the result of naming God.

    Funny, Doll-face, Satan WAS metaphorical until the Christians, and even then not at the time of Christ. Even at Catholic school they teach you that Satan did not evolve until the Church encountered Manichean and Zoroastrean influences.

    What is my answer to the Satan of the Bible? What part of the Bible? The satan that tempted David to take a census of Israel? Or the Satan of the New Testament? These are two very different satan ideas. It's not the writer's fault, Hon, if you can't figure that out. Either way, Satan is a representative idea.

    You know, I've railed against the public image of Christianity in other posts. Where in the world do you get your ideas about Wicca? Tell ya, Baby-Doll, they're pretty foul. Your attitude surrounding the very word "Wicca" hints at an underlying motive. Why do you find the notion so distasteful? Because your parents and preachers and church groups have told you? Why were testimonials written? Certainly not for objectivity.

    And by the way, Babycakes, I don't look good in lingerie ... Cha-ching.

    Tiassa

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  20. truestory Registered Senior Member

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    Tiassa,

    Where does "I don't look good in lingerie" come from? Just curious.
     
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    Truestory ...

    She called me "chicky". Believe me--the one thing you never want to see is me in lingerie.

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    "Let us not launch the boat until the ground is wet." (Khaavren of Castlerock)
     
  22. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Oh yea, the gender thing keeps f'ing me up! Where in the do you get that God=faith? Faith is an attribute, and God is a being. Also, my parents aren't preachers, and I rejected religion of any kind as a child. God is not a metaphor, and neither is Satan. What do you mean by Satan "evolving"? Do you mean to say that the interpretation evolved? Because Satan was created. The identity of Satan was not revealed until the Bible was written. Here's an example... a metaphor wouldn't influence you to be blind to the word of God. Satan is. See?

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    God loves you and so do I!
     
  23. Boris Senior Member Registered Senior Member

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    Lori,

    But God <u>is</u> a metaphor. God has no shape, identity, or describable qualities. God is entirely beyond any description, other than the designator "God". At least the Jews think so. And this God <u>came</u> from the Jews!

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