Unconditional love

It is worth mentioning I think that unconditionality would only exist more as an ideal rather than a real immediate possibility given that the current way of the world is so conditional. However loving the conditionality is a part of unconditional love if one wants to ever see the world achieve the ideal.

 

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There's almost allways some kind of reason why someone do something bad to you (if it is with intent), and yes, that reason may be of "self-interest" only. But I have done bad things because of self interest also, and can to some degree understand what that person is going through, even if I wouldn't accept what he is doing it is still possible to love that person. But if he (let's assume that it is a "he" for the sake of readiness (I hate using "he/she" all the time)) do bad things to me all the time, then enough is enough and I must stay away from him, and if it is really bad go to the police and get restrainment order. But that doesn't mean that I don't 'love' that person anymore! Love is far more flexible than that.

I guess it can come to a point where I hate that person because I love him.

 

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Well, I really hope that there are people out there that don't follow the world in that way.

(We don't HAVE to)

 

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Well, you can give someone a fish and you can learn someone how to fish.

I'm not a very materialistic person and I rather love the creator than the created, but it is possible to love both.

(sometimes even necessary)

 

well at the moment there is nothing they can do for me to disown them, and of course i love my kids the way they are/were, nothing can change that,

 

what way are you refering to?

 

I agree, I don't believe it could ever be anything other than an ideal, it would require hate to cease existence forever.

Perhaps that's why it can never be achieved, it seems to me it would require constant forgiveness of our flaws(fair enough in some circumstances) however this would be required to apply even when it goes against everything we see as moral. It's basically a free pass to do anything, and whilst on a simplistic selfish level this may make people happy, I don't see this as a benefit.
Perhaps I've misunderstood.

 

Whilst there might be a grey area where you can feel like and dislike at the same time, surely love and hate are extremes that are in contradiction? You may have hated something they did but love the person, but there comes a point where a persons constant actions and personality defines that very person. A point where there is no longer enough to like compared to what you dislike.
I think if you know what love and hate are as emotions you will see it as a straight line, each at opposite ends, the grey area in between with mixed emotions along the lines of likes and dislikes. I think somewhere along the line; at a different point for each of us, there is the breaking point, the point where love becomes hate(or vice versa if you like). If you haven't the knowledge of both emotions the line would never be able to end.

 

I don't believe there is unconditional love. I want to, but I know I have conditions on who I love. Even with my kids. I thought I didn't, but I do. If they set fire to the cat....

 

The world is hard to change, it's easier to change oneself.

In that sense, if the world is materialistic and conditional, we shouldn't follow it! We should follow the ideal we try to make, only then can the world change. But it will probably never come to a perfect state. However it is possible for a person to experiance bliss even in a imperfect world, and love unconditionally even if we experiance that most people don't.

 

Hate is not lack of love the same way that darkness is lack of light. If you have lack of love for someone you won't care enough to hate him.

Love and hate are often two sides of the same coin... I can't guarantee that it's that way all of the cases though. But I can't think of hating someone that I haven't previously loved. I guess that the only times I have felt contempt for someone is when I haven't got to known him, and has thus prejudged him.

It's like "Why did you hate me? Because I loved you and STILL you did that!"


We might also hate someone because we hate what WE did, and transfer it unto that person. That has happened to me a couple of times, and I've also seen it happen to others.

 

I believe if you can separate a person from their faults and understand that they are not their delusions you can love someone unconditionally. That doesn't mean to say you excuse their bad behaviour, not at all, but that you understand they suffer from delusions and are essentially just a person.

 

Why would lacking love towards someone simply make you unemotional towards them? I'm not sure I understand your definitions of love and hate, from what you say it sounds as though you're saying if I hate someone I must love them too, which is somewhat nonsensical.
I no longer feel any love for people I now hate, likewise I do not now love someone I once hated, it would be unnatural. :shrug:

Sometimes it will be, but not necessarily.

Yes that can happen too.

 

Idealistically perhaps, but can it realistically be done? Can natural human emotion ever overcome the natural point at which we can no longer feel love for someone?
Even more importantly should it occur? Should there come a point where we continually unconditionally love the rapists and murderers of the world because we separate their faults and decide they're 'only fallible humans'. Is this in any way wise? Of course humans are fallible, but does that mean we should have the attitude of 'go ahead and do what you like, we'll still love you'. Wouldn't we just end up forgetting what love really is?:shrug:

 

Exactly my point. No, we shouldn't just say "Oh well, he's a naughty boy but we still love him even though he's a child molesting monster". That would be absurd and not what I said in my first post at all. Knowing someone is sick and suffering from a mental illness doesn't give them permission to go ahead and act in monstrous ways. You use countermeasures to ensure theirs and others safety from that behaviour. However, you can still know that they are sick and feel love for them knowing they're sick. Say for example a man with Downs Syndrome rapes a young girl. Society would automatically make allowances for the man's inability to reason with what is right and wrong. It would be easy to see how someone's mental abilities could restrict someone's discriminatory factors. There are even some in society that could feel compassion for him knowing he couldn't do anything other than what he felt compelled to do. I'm not being objectively abstract here. I have been in a similar situation and removed a person's delusions from them and cultivated a mind of love for them, even to the point of giving them something they needed. It's our motivation that's important, not the result.

 

Well, one sign of hate is that we care about someone (which is a form of love), if we didn't care about the person, then I don't think we would hate him.

I could be wrong though, but I think that love is somehow present in some way when we hate. At least we could love the morals that we have that makes us hate a person breaking those morals, which is basically the same as wanting that person to follow those morals, or at least to set an example so that others can. So in that case love is present either way.

I can imagine a hate that is unpersonal though, if I hate someone because he did something to someone I love, then I guess the hate could be directed entirely to the person and the love directed at the one I love.

But I think that once the emotions settles you would find that you don't hate him so much after all, or you realise that you can't ever find any love for him again. I've never felt that I can't recover the love for someone as of yet though no matter what they have done, so I guess I speak for a stranger.

 

I think there is unconditional love. I don't know if I have found it just yet, but I do think that it exists. Otherwise people wouldn't force themselves to stay with people who treat them so badly. It isn't rational, but I think it exists.

 

the opposite of love is indifference not hate. if we were indifferent to a person then we wouldnt hate them. we just would care what they did.

 

nice point Granpa...
and to add to it if I may

"hate is the manifestation of a love or loving that is frustrated" ~ anon [ I can't remember who proposed this]

 

I don't think that there is such a thing as unconditional love. I believe that you love a person for who they are. Sure one can grow and change, and you may be able to love them throughout that process, and love what they've become. However, even though in the physical sense they're still the same person, in the mental/emotional sense they can be a completely different person. So you're loving a different person. So would it be love to their physical form that is unconditional, for those who claim to love someone unconditionally? I think that a lot of the time, we love the idea of that person, and not necessarily them in all that they are. I've had this discussion with a lot of people regarding them making statements such as "They're family, I have to love them," as though the love must be "unconditional" simply because someone is related to you or something. That seems really shallow, and somewhat naive to me. Do you love people because you're "supposed to?" The few people that I love, I love for who they are. There is no golden rule that says you must love your family. I mean, sure it could be a really good thing, but sometimes they are just really bad people. What does that say about you if you love a bad person? What do you love about them? "I just do." I hear that a lot. If that's the case, then follow your heart, or the yellow fucking brick road for all I care. Excuses and cop-outs just annoy me. People are people. Regardless of relation, race, profession, etc., we're all just people. I just don't think that loving someone "no matter what" makes any sense at all. I think that a lot of the time people confuse need and want with love. You need people in your life so bad, that you'll convince yourself that you love them no matter what. "Love is blind." Well, so is stupidity. Also, there was a quote in this thread before me about hate being frustrated love or something along those lines. I should have quoted it, but here I am, so here I go. I've thought that for a long time now. I think that hate is spawned from love. Emotions are questionable, etc., but following the belief that they are real, love and hate definitely seem to be the mama and papa of all the others. I really think that love is the beginning of them all. Hate is used far too loosely, but anyone who has known "true hate" knows how intense it is. The only thing I've ever felt to match that intensity was love. Through love, (especially in the romantic sense) one can get to you like nobody else. Therefore they can hurt you like nobody else. So while you might not necessarily be able to love and hate someone at the same time, it can definitely feel that way because the hate is caused by the love. I mean, think about the things/people that you "hate." The majority of the time, it's because they hurt you, or hurt someone you love, or stand against something you love. Loosely, say Peta hates fur coats. Why? Because they love animals. Love opens the door for hate. Hate is caused by love. I understand how easy it is to believe that you have unconditional love for your child. I have a child, and I feel the same way sometimes. (Okay, most of the time.) And when they're still a child, maybe it is possible. That child, though, is a person too. They're going to grow up, and have their own personality, and they might very well stand for everything you stand against. You may hate everything about them. But you still love them? I don't think so. Unless you really do just love their flesh and blood for the simple fact that you created it. You may still love the idea of your child, and what they once were, and even feel obligated to say and convince yourself that you still love them, but if you hate everything about them...you don't love them. I think I said all I wanted to say for now. Thoughts?