US and Isreal - Why?

Discussion in 'World Events' started by aaqucnaona, Oct 18, 2012.

  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    So your evidence of jewish persecution is a system where they were afforded MORE rights than others? I think your either being dishonest or don't understand what the definition of persecution is. not to mention we have been over your love of using anachronistic standards to try and prove your point.



    also not a single part mention palestine. what a surprise your trying to lump all muslims into one group to slur one specific group.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    first that ignores the fact in why the US first started supporting Israel. Jewish votes. secondly the 2 scenarios aren't really the same. Israel's enemies are americas enemies because we support Israel while china has other reasons for being opposed to the US than Taiwan. also Israel was created by foreign conquest while the china Taiwan was that the very successful rebel group (PRC) doesn't like the continuation of the group it rebelled against (ROC). those have very different factors that apply. you could argue with reasonable strength, though I know you won't admit this, that Israel is usurping the legitimate sovereignty of the region while in the chinese debacle it is the PRC that usurped the sovereignty.
     
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  5. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Projection and protestation

    Oh. So dhimmitude is a system that affords Jewish people more rights than others. More rights than their neighbours of the religious majority. What a curious system.

    This comment raises several points - first, that you seem to think that a system that makes second class citizens of Jews is actually for their promotion, which makes me wonder widely about your honesty or comprehension. We could spend a few more posts breaking it down into one of those two but I'm just going to write it off as kneejerk projection, because that's what it is.

    Oh? This section also raises several questions. One: how could I possibly slur all Muslims (capitals, please) by citing a philosophy clearly designed to give Jewish people special rights above and beyond those of Muslim citizens? (That was sarcasm, BTW. See your argument above.) Second: so Jewish people in Palestine were specifically not under such restrictions? They weren't shoved back onto tiny enclaves? If you have some proof that they were exempted from such racist laws, I'd love to see it. You could also discuss this:

    And third: your accusation strikes me as another attempt to dodge an issue you consider too damaging to your viewpoint - whatever that can be - by burying it in argument terminators. No thanks, not buying. It's amusing that this is the only form of religious law defended by self-proclaimed liberals and libertarians.

    Anyway, like I said, projection.
     
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Found some other horrifying tales on the intertube highway.


    Apparently these are from "From Time Immemorial" by Joan Peters (1984). It's WND, but the stopped clock is right twice a day.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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  9. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Ok, if you say so... And I guess all the other major UN powers including the USSR supported its declaration of independence for the same reason?

    And it has nothing to do with US and British interference with attempts at self-government throughout the Arabian peninsula, supporting pro-western dictators and systematically exploiting their oil reserves? The Saudi royal family was installed well before Israel was even a country. As long as you're dependent on selling weapons to dictators who sell you cheap oil in return, the locals are going to consider you their enemy. That tiny patch of desert on the Mediterranean coast has nothing to do with countries like Iran and Pakistan having a crappy quality of life; you ascribe far too much power to the Jews.

    Yes I can just see it now, one second it's peace and quiet, next second you've got Jews storming the beaches like it was DDay, and declaring their own country a week later. Maybe you and Mel Gibson can make a "historically accurate" movie about it.

    Outside Gaza and the West Bank they're not usurping a damn thing. They're not in Iraq, they're not in Afghanistan, they're not the ones making Syrians and Lebanese fight amongst themselves. They didn't lift a finger to stop the Muslim Brotherhood from assuming power in Egypt. Your definition of "legitimate sovereignty" is tainted by personal animosity, because you blame the Jews for turning Poland into the land of the po' and preventing it from attaining its rightful destiny as a globe-trotting empire.
     
  10. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    irrelevant to the thread but hey no sweat off my nose.



    which the support of Israel plays into. hell the palestinians were pro western until you know we decided the zionist conquest was kosher for us. I'm not saying there weren't other factors but our support for Israel ranks up there in why the US is disliked.
    No I don't you just like tarring me as anti semitic and refuse to admit anything negative could happen because of jewish actions.



    please quit accusing me of anti semitism simply because I'm willing to call Israel out on its crimes. and considering YOUR the own who has repeated nazi propaganda you and mel have a lot more in common than me and him.



    SO there was never a palestinian presence out side of gaza and the west bank. sorry but they conquered palestine just because your ok with it doesn't mean they didn't take land that as a signatory to the UN mandate system the s\western powers already aknowledged the right of sovereignty to the palestinians.
    only cause the US and UK prevented it they wanted in on both gulf wars
    true but irrelevant
    they are involved in stiring the pot.
    why would they it benefits them.
    no personal animosity just not ignorant of the fact that the jews haven't always been as perfectly innocent as they like to make themselves out to be. also please don't lie about my beliefs. I have never blamed the jews for polands fall to the USSR if you repeat such lies I will report for slander. I know who I blame and its those responsible not those who sought to gain from it.
     
  11. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you do that book has been debunked by multiple historians from a various schools of thought, including an Israeli historian who referred to it as a "sheer forgery", right?
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    "Debunked" is an overly confident term for your point here, PJ, and I think you select that term knowingly, which is disappointing. I hope this is not so.

    The book is certainly in debate, but what I see is that it's conclusions are in debate, and that some of it has been selectively picked. That does not mean that the citations therein are false; moreover, it does not mean that the citations therein lead one to an erroneous conclusion about historical discrimination against Jews in Palestine.

    Nor have you responded to post #63 at all; to which I add, this, incidentally:

    Kingslake refers to the Safed pogrom. Several other massacres and pogroms occurred there. From the Wiki:

    I await your rebuttal of my rebuttal. Did you still wish to take up the fraudulent digression about some imagined general accusation against all Muslims, or whatever it was?
     
  13. mr.spock2 Registered Member

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    If it was up to the Russians we wouldnt need no "Iron Dome".
    But our economy would probably be screwed up even more then it is.
     
  14. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Right, because if it was up to the Russians you would have been sold to the highest bidder 20 years ago. They'd be only too happy give ultranationalist Arab states the propaganda victory they're so butthurt about not winning after 67 years, in exchange for lucrative oil rights. Every major politician in the US wants to see a two state solution, including Mitt Romney, so maybe you can tell me what you would do to force Israel out of the West Bank if you were president, because it seems from my POV that Obama is doing the bare minimum, and you guys would simply laugh off anything less.
     
  15. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Silly.
    If I am understanding you correctly, your stance is rather sinister. There is absolutely no way to justify persecuting, murdering and imprisoning a people, including woman and children, to prevent future "crimes". Note: 1. That is exactly what Hitler did. 2. The atrocious genocide against Jews that may lead to your "writing on the wall" was committed by Europeans, not Muslims.
    What?
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    So don't be. Pick a less pejorative example next time.

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    Hitler? I don't recall mentioning him. You mentioned "increasing tensions" between Arabs and Jews, but the repression of Jewish people in Palestine goes back much, much further than 1916. You followed that up with the comment that the 'locals' (which I must presume do not include Jews) 'saw the writing on the wall'.

    As for genocide, there's as much reason to point fingers at the East as at Europe: Jewish culture in the ME has been under a pressure cooker for a thousand years. I hope you're not saying that that history was excused by the prescience of ME leaders regarding the eventual creation of Israel. That seems pretty sinister to me, too; and it does seem like you're alluding to it. Not pretty. I don't know if anyone's mentioned this to you, but that was exactly what Hitler did.
     
  17. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Just to follow up, and more frankly: it is sinister of you to intimate that the repression of Jews in the ME was somehow done in a sense of foresight about the outcome of the clash between Jews and Arabs. You only found the concept sinister in the reverse.
     
  18. StrawDog disseminated primatemaia Valued Senior Member

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    Nope that was not my intended intimation, pardon for the misunderstanding - I think my grasp of English is even more limited than my grasp of ضحية.
     
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    My apologies then.
     
  20. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Admittedly I'm not posting in this thread to join a debate or attack anyone's view, in fact I just thought I would add a picture of some Palestinians that happened to be Protesting in New Orleans on Saturday. It's a good action shot, it caught their protest quite well.

    A personal perspective about the whole Israel/Palestine perspective would be to actually look how it all came about. First off you have a religion declaring rights over a territory by "God", I could never agree with that since my personal opinion is religion is a monumental waste no matter what flag it bears or what one it burns. Then of course you have the "Hitler" factor causing a community of religious zealots to become even more xenophobic than they ever were, however I can't complain about people keeping themselves to themselves. No the real problem was actually the Cold War that raged after Hitler's removal, that's when territories were forged and borders were slapped up, cutting land up into countries (potentially unfairly to the people that lived there, since the land dispersal wasn't likely fair from their perspective.)

    Most of the problems that have existed since that day have come from that Cold War, after all there would never have been an Israel, Iraq or Afghanistan. In essence, I can respect peaceful protests, but Wars (justified or unjustified alike) are doomed to repeat the same mistakes, carving territories, turning people on each other and for whom, the controlling autocratic minority, those that are generally unfit to make decisions for people enmass (no matter colour or creed).

    image as attachment: View attachment 6012
     
  21. 786 Searching for Truth Valued Senior Member

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    Israel is our greatest ally because they conduct the most espionage operations within the United States. We love them for that.

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

    They were such great allies that they hid information they had about pre-9/11. We love them for that as well.

    BTW I have no interest in joining the debate, I'm just making rounds and then leaving again (I returned to this forum by chance).. And when I know spidergoat is still around making stupid comments like

    I know I shouldn't talk. By the way I wonder why Muslims aren't all over the place sending mortars into Spain, cuz obviously Spidergoat is so smart (Mr. I don't buy that

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    )
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  22. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Because people of Israel control part of US government.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_politicians


    11 Jewish senators, 26 Jewish representatives currently in US government. 11 seats for the cause of Israel out of 100 is power to control when it comes to the issues concerning Israel.
     

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