US two generations behind Russian fighter jets

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Billy T, Jan 6, 2008.

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  1. Gustav Banned Banned

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    i bet the tech was stolen from skunkworks
     
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

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    in 1970
     
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  5. domesticated om Stickler for details Valued Senior Member

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    What about somebody "equipped" with Russian gear?
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks (and to Bufallo Roam also) I had them confused in my memory.

    I still think, but few seem to agree or comment on (perhaps as they do not even understand the point), that the modern "dog fight" is between the target plane and the missle fired at it from the other plane, which probably is too far away to even see the target.

    I.e. If the target can rapidly "duck," it survives, if not, it dies. "Rapidly" means that it can maneuver, especially huge changes of speed and direction, so large (great accelerations) that they either confuse the missle's intercept computer or even let the traget escapes track.*
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    *by reaching same velocity, wrt the missle, as the clouds, birds, etc. which are locked out (from detection) by a "Dopper window" in the missle's radar reciever. (The velocity of the missle wrt the clouds must be blocked out as the radar cross section of them is huge. - everyone of them would appear to be a "target" if this is not done. All the target needs to do is stall in a cloud and it is safe as missle drops "drops radar track" of it. If the cloud is hot opaque** exhaust from the target, it is safe from optical & IR terminal systems also.) Does no one understand this? Is that why no one comments on the main advantage of the SU-30, even after seeing in the video it hide in its own marker smoke cloud?

    **Easily achieved by ejection of a little fuel oil, which as it burns is also a good decoy flare.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2008
  8. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    A modern IR or terminally active radar guided missile (like the AIM-9X or AIM-120C7) can discriminate from things like ground clutter and the sun, so I don't think it would have a problem finding the aircraft inside of a cloud of moisture or its own exhaust gas. Also consider that antiair missiles are proximity fuzed, so it just needs to get somewhere close by and detonate to shower the target with white hot chunks of tungsten shrapnel.

    Even if the Su-30 does succeed in spoofing its attacker for that single shot, how does that remedy the larger tactical picture? The Su-30 will have bled off its airspeed, turned its own sensors and weapons away from the attacker, and allowed the attacker to continue prosecuting the attack, never losing the initiative. The loss of inertia alone would probably be the Su-30's death knell. A missile weighs less, flies faster, and turns tighter than any airplane with a human pilot can (this gets into what hypewaders and a few of us were discussing about UCAVs on the first page).

    In other words, I guess it could happen as you describe, but I don't think it would accomplish anything for the Su-30 other than delaying its own demise, possibly increasing the chances of it, so I don't see it is a decisive factor.
     
  9. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    "Somebody" will never be a threat to us.
     
  10. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    What are you basing this on?
     
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Ground returns to the radar, like cloud returns, are often large but they are not processed as targets as they fall in the Doppler speed window of the missle own velocity. I.e. they are ignored as they are "stationary" as the SU-30 can be. (Falling downward from it prior trajectory does not give significant velocityt wrt to the missle - sort the same as a wind blown cloud - i.e. approximately same velocity wrt the missle as some clouds.)

    I do not know how IR guided (heat seeking) missles discriminates against the sun (as opposed to the also circular hot tail pipe). Possibly some spectral resolution is used. (Sun is nearly a black body at 5000C or K?) If target ejects some oil with the exhaust, I doubt any IR can find the target inside that hot opaque cloud. True missle has some proximaty fuse, but it is not large and may be trigered by chaff, I think.

    You mentioned the AIM-9X or AIM-120C7. I vaguely recall them. Are they automous or do they use the energy scattered from radar beam of the launching aircraft? Is some version of them also called the NATO sea sparrow?
     
  12. draqon Banned Banned

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    It would be better to think of an enemy as a weakling ... for an enemy
     
  13. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    One airplane is no threat to the US airforce.
     
  14. draqon Banned Banned

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  15. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Do you have one with the FA 22 Raptor in comparison?
     
  16. draqon Banned Banned

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    that would be like asking for governmental secret data

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  17. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    For just those three types of comparisons? I'd think not.
     
  18. draqon Banned Banned

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    Su-30 detection range vs. F-22
     
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks Dragon, but how about a few words also? I am confused by the diagrams. The right plane in post 55 is the one with the canards so I assume that is the SU-30. Is the larger red sector the region it can detect the F22 in, or the region the F22 can detect the SU-30 in? I.e. a little help please.
     
  20. draqon Banned Banned

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    Billy...the range diagram clearly shows that Su model has bigger range than F-22
     
  21. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    Both the -9X and the -120C7 are fire-and-forget.

    The -120 is a medium ranged missile that uses inertial guidance during the first 2/3 of its flyout until it gets into range of its onboard active seeker (terminal range) and thus the -120 benefits from midcourse telemetry updates from either the launch aircraft's radar or that of a nearby AWACS. If it doesn't get those updates it can still intercept, albeit with a lower kill probability if the target has moved significantly during flyout.

    He's right. Even if not, it would be a safe bet that any publicly available data on the F-22's RCS is wildly inaccurate and entirely useless, as that is probably the most highly classified aspect of the entire airplane.

    Considering that, those diagrams are also mostly useless unless we know what RCS they are assuming for the F-22, because those theoretical ranges would be largely predicated upon it. It might be the theoretical maximum against a target with a given RCS, or the maximum range limited by software to keep signal processing overhead in check, I dont know. I can guarantee you that it there is no way a Su-30 will get the drop on a F-22, especially if AWACS is airborne nearby. During Northern Edge 2006 we had F-22s going head to head with F-15Cs sporting the new APG-63(V)3 AESA radar, and our own F-15s never knew they were there before the Raptor pilots were calling them dead. The F-22 is so stealthy and flies so fast that it can get inside weapons range and overrun the defenses before they can coordinate a response.

    But an adversary equipped with many could be. Go back through the major conflicts the US has been involved in since the end of WWII and count the number of adversaries who have been customers of the Russian arms industry. Given that the nations who are currently at odds with US policy are also customers of the Russian arms industry, it is reasonable to use their best as a benchmark for our own systems to defeat. I think that was his point.
     
  22. draqon Banned Banned

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    Echo3Romeo...brainwashed of US military superiority...lolz
     
  23. Echo3Romeo One man wolfpack Registered Senior Member

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    Playing the jingoism card so soon? Too bad...I was hoping you could provide some additional context into how those pretty graphics were developed.
     
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