Re-reading "Red Dragon" for the first time in ages. Just finished it. One quote strikes me: "He wondered if, in the great body of mankind, in the minds of men set on civilization, the vicious urges we control in ourselves and the dark instinctive knowledge of those urges function like the crippled virus the body arms against" For years I have struggled with my own innate viciousness. Certain human, all too human propensities towards cruelty. It was not the restraining them that hurts, it is the fear that I am only innately vicious - that I have no propensities towards compassion. Nietzsche helps a little Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! "Of all evil I deem you capable: therefore I want the good from you. Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws. " Is Harris right to say that the our knowledge of these urges is our saviour? That knowing that we have an innate cruelty vaccinates us from ever acting in a way that is cruel and vicious? More to the point, is there a reason (other than, "Xev, you'll go to fucking prision") to restrain our vicious urges? I believe that true morality springs from innate decency, but I also know that innate cruelty exists. Should we embrace it? Willingly adopt the beast? What is one to do with one's vicious urges? Edit to add: Oh, and Adam, don't even think of making some crack about how I can abuse you anytime. I swear, if you do I will fly to Oz and personally kick your arse. Oh wait......duh. Nevermind. Oh, and Adam, I dedicate this thread to you, whose ramblings set off this chain of thought. Oh! And Thomas Harris! And lack of sleep!
From: http://www.sciforums.com/t8458/s/thread.html From: http://www.sciforums.com/t9026/s/thread.html
I actually preferred "Red Dragon" to "Silence of the Lambs" when I first read it. i still do, but i havent read either for quite a while now. i might have to revisit. ok im drunk so im going to ramble...... A fair few have told me that it is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Now, we all take this (at least most do) as some form of truism. However, by extension, then it would also be better to experience ANYTHING than to never experience at all. Is this correct? i mean, if the experience of love (and dont get sidetracked when i mention that word) is worth it, then is not ALL experience, by default? how can you comment on any one matter when you dont have experience of them all, at least for comparison purposes? im not sure where im going with this yet. Basically, what stops us from experiencing all there is to experience is morality. ergo, some things (ie love) are ok to explore, while others are not. from memory (i haven't read red dragon for a couple of years) the detective is very good at what he does because he can put himself in the shoes of the perpetrator. This means he can IMAGINE, and therefore is very close to what makes the killer tick. Empathy. without actually being a perpetrator himself, he understands cruelty and a criminal mind, and this allows him to understand the criminal. What is it that separates him from the killer, if BOTH have the same imagination? Adam has said that his training puts him in touch, or at least maed him think of what he was capable of, but he still wonders if he is TRULY capable of if it came down to it. I wonder the same thing. I live in the North West of Western Australia and i can bring down a roo with a rifle from quite some distance away. What separates us from a serial killer? Adam has the training and knows that he CAN... but he probably wont (unless ordered to... which may be a different story.) What is the separator? what is it that makes one person stop at certain point and another capable of following through? I'm not thinking this though properly yet, i've had too much to drink. Howveer, one thing grabs me... Adam... I know that i would intervene, if i saw someone in the act of rape, murder, or theft. I've done it before (although not in such an extreme example). However, i have yet to fathom why i WOULD do so, or why i DO do so.. I simply dont know, and I've put a lot of thought into it. The same empathy that makes me intervene is what might stop you from pulling the trigger in a combat situation, or at least make you think twice. Empathy is the word that we find in the dictionary for an action or lack thereof... but what CAUSES empathy? BTW... Adam. i think i may have underestimated you in the past. my apologies.
Perhaps the definition of "Good" and "Evil" has existed for far too long and seriously needs re-defining. Or, if we did that, would we be merely giving ground to a new way of thinking which instead of being more correct, is merely more in keeping with social needs at this point in time? damn... i need a better command of english. What i mean to say is... are we merely fitting definitions of "evil" and "good" to what we require at this point in time? i know what you're saying Xev, and i agree with you regarding... I also believe that there is a core inside us, for whatever reason, which dictates our final views on morality. however, the question needs to be asked... ARE WE JUST MAKING IT UP AS WE GO ALONG BECAUSE IT SUITS OUR IDEALS?
Squid Vicious: I think we should maybe just throw the fucking thing out with the bathwater. Yes, we obviously change our definition of good and evil to fit social needs. Now, we call slavery "evil and immoral"†. But for most of our history, it was no big deal. Hell, slavery still exists throughout the world. Yes, I think we are. That's what scares me. I think my inner core is quite moral, but what if it's not? What if I am innately sadistic only and just good at justifying my repression of my sadistic urges? And this scares me, because I am so used to doubting everything that I doubt this. †: To quote the wise philosopher who questioned what is is and brought an almost Foucaultian revolution into the definition of sex. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
"For years I have struggled with my own innate viciousness. Certain human, all too human propensities towards cruelty. It was not the restraining them that hurts, it is the fear that I am only innately vicious - that I have no propensities towards compassion." Pre-Nietzschean Xev did you fear the reprocussions of being innately vicious or the fact that you considered it bad (immoral, unethical..... choose a word) or were worried that maybe you consider it bad? "Is Harris right to say that the our knowledge of these urges is our saviour? That knowing that we have an innate cruelty vaccinates us from ever acting in a way that is cruel and vicious?" I don't believe Harris says that knowing ourselves saves us from doing something cruel. Your first sentance is more the intended point - that knowing these urges is a saviour.... "More to the point, is there a reason (other than, "Xev, you'll go to fucking prision") to restrain our vicious urges? I believe that true morality springs from innate decency, but I also know that innate cruelty exists." Well there's always the fucking prison reason. Why else? Personal choice. Weigh the options. Logically choose (ignoring prison) if being vicious will benefit you more. "Should we embrace it? Willingly adopt the beast? What is one to do with one's vicious urges?" What do you do naturally? My vicious urges in real life I tend to explore and while exploring tend to find another way to let them out. Hockey helps!
Tyler: I - feared not the reprocussions. I can control myself quite well. I feared what this revealed about me. Zarathrusra calls it "the beast inside". I know I have an innate cruelty. I also know that the thing that seperates me from the sadist is only the fact that I channel my cruelty. Blind cruelty has gotten many a leader into trouble, but many have used cruelty per se to their advantage. So will embracing cruelty harm me? Not necessarily.
"I feared what this revealed about me." Why? "Blind cruelty has gotten many a leader into trouble, but many have used cruelty per se to their advantage. So will embracing cruelty harm me? Not necessarily." What cruelty have you felt like exerting?
Depends what you mean by harm. Does it hurt you do see pain and suffering. Does it weigh heavy on your heart? I once thought my purpose in life was violence that was all i was good at, for me I found it was a empty path that lead only to misery and pain(mine as well as others). It may of may not harm you depending on your defenition of harm and your paradigm. Harm you physicaly (some one stronger or with more advanced technology). Is it to use cruelty to control others so as to bend ther will to yours? Then what would you have but control. What worth would it be to control anothers will?
I know what you mean Xev. all too good. go through this also. Nietzsche is a good help alsoPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I sorta embraced the beast lol But I'm afraid that it cost me something can't really describe- I lost some of my emotions, some others were trasnformed. Emotional reaction to some was weakened to some it arose. I can not really describe why the particular ones. for instance-> In high danger situations I act very calm. People always mock me that I don't understand the situation. smtimes things which are important to the majority of others have no meaning to me. I've become colder. Before I sorta embraced the beast I all the time hang out with girls, now I better enjoy me, myself, my pc and nature around me. Other people have become more insignificant. I really have very very few close ppl. (damn- lost one this summmerPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!) I've grown a lot more ironical and can really harm others with my tongue. Smtimes I even take pleasure in it (but I think that then the beast which is really a part of me takes over). I duno...I'm cold and I have locked away from people. don't really have a need for them anymore. I don't know if it's bad or not, just weird. smtimes I get amazed by smthing that others of my age don't care about? or they think that I'm mad on excursions to go and sleep outside and I've been really bad smtimes and just throwed off any girls who came closer...why? I duno myself. I remember I once just shouted to leave me alone...that time I was listening to Mike oldfield Tubular bells and watching the sun set in the sea...so romantic...but I said her to leave me alone. lol ... why? I duno myself Anyways I love playing with my mind and I don't know where it will lead me... ...I don't know and I wish I could plan my mind ahead...It's very interesting, but smtimes very scary this has all been extremely honest. I'm really honest on net lol
Xev ... "Should we embrace it?" Not to do so would be irrational. Unfortunately, many people are more willing to embrace myths: The basic 'goodness' of our nature than the reality of our specie's behavior over the ages; "Willingly adopt the beast?" Willingly and joyfully ... 'And the truth shall set you free' - or some- thing like that; "What is one to do with one's vicious urges?" When appropriate, control them. Otherwise, give free reign to them and enjoy fully the satisfaction that comes with anhilating, figuratively or literally, the bastard, the enemy, the other, the idiot. For what it's worth. Take care Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Avatar: Sorry. I know exactly what you mean. I "connect" with very few people. Odd, this to I understand. There was a time when I needed approval and affection, but this died in me, and I don't see most other people as anything but potential tools. I rarely even feel contempt now, as well. You know "Untermensch" by Wumpscut? I don't feel this way much anymore. But it's scary, sometimes the things that I feel, like the pure waves of agression that occasionally sweep over me. And this shows. I can walk down the street in a certain mood and people will literally move out of my way. And the feeling that I can manipulate anyone into doing my bidding, as long as I have the will to understand their motivations..... It frightens me. I think I know why I've spent so long trying to construct logical, ethical systems. Simply a way to keept the beast chained. Chagur: Agreed, thanks.
you should take up politics, XevPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I could also, but I feel some kind of disgust to it I understand that it's the ultimate control tool, but..... there are things even more important- like myself
Avatar: *Laughs* An athiest with no money running for public office? Besides, they would eat me alive if I did this. I think I am suited to politics, but more as a behind the scenes advisor. I'm more Walsingham than Elizabeth.
yes- money is the tricky partPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! duno- maybe I should try to get into politics alsoPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! nobody will care if I'm an atheist so it's 1/2 easier than for you
