Violence

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Michael, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I don't know what country you live in (apparently Australia, judging by your comments), but in the United States that is exceedingly rare. A friend of ours hadn't filed a tax return in fifteen years. Mrs. Fraggle kept nagging him about being a freeloader and he finally gave in and contacted the IRS. They gave him a schedule to catch up on his back taxes and then sent him home.

    And it wasn't like they didn't know. They had plenty of records on him. They just didn't bother. Your delinquent tax bill has to have quite a few more zeroes before they're going to come after you. And even then they'll just call your secretary, rather than breaking into your office with guns and handcuffs.

    The government wants tax money. They can't collect taxes from people who aren't working. And people who are in prison aren't working. Duh?

    I'm both a libertarian and a Libertarian, but I understand that if you agree to live in a country like the USA which grants you complete freedom to emigrate if you don't like it here, then if you decide to live here you have made an implicit contract to obey its laws.

    I like it here well enough to put up with the few things I don't like. So I stay and I pay my taxes.

    A significant amount of the services we rely on are provided by the government. Sure, the government doesn't do a very good job on most of them and it charges far too much because its structure is almost deliberately crafted to be slow and inefficient. Nonetheless we need those services. We can't just get up one morning and say, "Okay we've decided to provide our own educational, judiciary, police, infrastructural, and all the other services that we've been getting from the government." It would take fifty years to make that transition. And those fifty years would be hell. If you guys want to try it, please wait another twenty years or so until I'm gone.

    If you don't like paying taxes so much that it's driving you crazy, I suggest you emigrate to a country where the government provides fewer services and collects less tax money. Maybe some place like Bangladesh.
     
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  3. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Or Somalia, the libertarian's dream!
     
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  5. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    OK, it was an extreme example, but, wasn't Asguard's? If you don't want to do things our way, go somewhere and .... what? This is the ONE thing I do think Government should be involved in: Ensuring my legal natural rights as a Citizen to live as a free person. No one has the right to tell me to leave the land I was born on. That's a natural right.

    In my mind it's sort of like this: Let's rewind the clock 200 years. Most blacks are slaves. Suppose one wants to NOT be a Slave. Their "master" is good enough to let them go. OK, but you can't be a part of "our" society.

    Why? If I was born in this land, why is it "I" have to leave? That doesn't sound fair. Just because I don't want to be a Slave and pick cotton I'm not allowed to live here as a free-person? Maybe society itself should change? Or at least think about changing. Yes, we all know we need the cotton picked. How about we find a means of getting the cotton picked (that we all agree needs to be done) in a manner that doesn't involve forcing someone to do something they don't want to do.

    No. They can have their electricity cut off if they don't pay. You could think of that as a "threat" but it's not. It's like saying, I'll serve you a coffee, but, I'm not going to serve you unless you pay me. That's not threat it's the withholding of property by the person (or people) who one that property.
     
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  7. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Civilization is based on violence, Michael. Think about it. What if you set up a free society and some gang of people decided to use that freedom to establish some other order (or anarchy). In order to maintain freedom, you would have to use force against them.
     
  8. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree. People think they're getting a service, but, I think what's they're actually getting is farmed - like Cattle.

    Look at the TRILLIONS that were spent propping up the Too Big Too Fail Banks.
    (I'm sure that doesn't count as evidence to you)

    Look at the TRILLIONS spent on the military.
    (I'm sure that doesn't count as evidence to you)


    People are given the illusion they can change the system, when the reality is both parties and all the national media are owned by a few wealthy in the 0.01%. The wealthy pay tax? No, the wealthy buy the government and use it against the Citizens. The poorest are made dependent on the State and they're scared if things change the few crumbs they're tossed will be taken away. So they stay in the pens like scared little Cattle OR, worse, never realized they were in a pen to begin with.


    EDS processed data for large corporations. It got its first big break by being awarded contracts to manage the data for Medicare. By 1968, the stock price of EDS rose from $16 to $160 per share.

    EDS was going broke until a bloated State nipple came along. That's a fact.
     
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I said before you are always allowed to defend yourself and you children. Of course, that's only natural.
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I just wanted to address this. I agree, as JDawg pointed out, it may not have been the best worded argument.

    Therefor I THINK using the words "initiate force" is more appropriate.

    So, we could think of it as a kind of axiom (of sorts) we're trying to arrive at.

    Is it moral to initiate force against an innocent person?


    If we suggest that NO it's not, then what are the implications for society? What sort of society would be derived while trying not to violate this "Law".
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Somalians use force against the innocent on a daily bases. They also don't respect property rights. As such, one could think of Somalia as the Liberal Progressives wet dream

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    Seriously, both think they "managing" the well being of the general public. In the case of Somalia it's Theobots in control. In the case of the "Civilized" world it's Technocrats in control.

    You'd need an educated society of Libertarians to live in a Libertarian society. You know?
     
  12. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    It's not about not paying taxes. Yea, I pay my taxes, I'm not that worried about "taxes" or money for that matter. I mean, maybe I would if I ran low on it, but, that's probably not going to happen anytime too soon so I don't worry about tax or money. If I lost my job I'd be able to get another one that pays pretty well and I'd have enough money to live well enough until that time even if it took awhile. SO, I don't want to sound as if this has anything to do with me. I'm happy with my life. I like challenges.

    This is about exploring the "possibility" of what society would be like it those same services were provided by private individuals and not the State.

    So, let's not get too sidetracked on the pragmatism here. I'm under no illusion that we can have a Libertarian society of Communists. It's obviously not going to work. You'd need a society of independent libertarians raised and property educated in non-violent households to be free-market minded Citizens. It took about 100 years to get to from there to here, I don't think we're going back any time too soon. Maybe, if things go to shit, following a WWIII and a generation or two of very poor living conditions, if the USA is not owned by China, we may think about taking some Libertarian ideas and thinking about their logical conclusions?


    By then medicine will have advanced to the point of no aging and robots would probably do all the work... so maybe we'll be ready to go Back to the Future

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    Last edited: Feb 28, 2012
  13. Balerion Banned Banned

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    And they do that. The Constitution guarantees you certain, inalienable rights. And nobody is telling you to leave. But if you want to live outside of the law, then you'd be better off somewhere else. The same goes for anyone else.

    [quoteIn my mind it's sort of like this: Let's rewind the clock 200 years. Most blacks are slaves. Suppose one wants to NOT be a Slave. Their "master" is good enough to let them go. OK, but you can't be a part of "our" society. [/quote]

    Not the same thing at all. Taxation is not slavery.

    No one is saying you have to. Where are you getting this?

    Here you go again! How is it you can't bring yourself to make an honest point? Also, comparing yourself as a taxpayer to a field slave is incredibly insulting.

    You have every right to try to make that change happen. But in the meantime, you don't just get to not pay taxes.

    It's the exact same principal. If you want to enjoy the benefits of a modern society, you have to pay for them.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe I didn't word that correctly. I'm saying, telling a Slave they have to (and worse, should) accept their lot in life is similar to Asguard telling me if I don't like it "I" can be the one to leave. I'm saying it's society that needs to change, not me.

    Whether or not that is "true" is the matter of this debate. If we suppose a moral society is one that doesn't initiate force against the innocent Citizen, then, if we follow this line of reasoning to it's conclusion, we can't have income tax. Which, until recently, we didn't have! BUT, it's more than just income tax. All sorts of things will need to change.


    My argument could also be expressed like this: We don't think initiating force in other relationships (such as a lover or a friend) is moral, so, why the pass on income tax? I mean, could you imagine: You're either going to go out with me, or, the Blue Clown suites will toss you in prison OR you better run and run far!


    While these examples may seem insulting or humors, I'm only using them to try and get a different perspective on the same fact: Initiating force against an innocent person is immoral. Stealing is immoral.
     
  15. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Why do you think it's ok to be a paracyte?

    Your right stealing IS immoral and your suggesting it's ok to steal from everyone else
     
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Stealing is immoral. Income tax is therefor immoral.
    Inflating fiat currency is also immoral as it's a hidden tax (another means of theft).
    Initiating force against innocent people is immoral.

    So, why have this debate? Because, we should be able to agree that "stealing" is immoral. The initiation of force (that I initially referred to as 'violence') is immoral.

    You would not steal from your neighbor.
    You would force a woman to be your partner in life.

    You do know these are immoral actions.

    What happens is you remove yourself from the force, from the theft, by using 'government' (a collection of people) as your proxy. You give them a title like Attorney Minister Monkey in Chief and Father of the Banana Land. Well, I'm sorry, it's still immoral.

    The solution is to change the entire system. From what we think of as money all the way to the role of government. We're using 2012 technology and living under a 1912 monetary system and government. If you think taxing the "rich" is somehow going to make society equitable you're being hoodwinked. The system has you locked in your pen and you don't seem to recognize that to be free you need to get out of your pen.

    Why are you so worried about taxing the rich, when you know damn well the government simply prints them the money to begin with? It's silly. You take a bit off the rich, the government starts up the printing presses and gives them twice as much in return. You end up poorer. It's plainly obvious we need to break free from central banks and central planning technocrats. OR we live in our pen.

    The rich are getting richer and they're going to continue to get richer. You can tax them 100% and you will still be poor and they will still rule you. Corzine actually stole 1.2 BILLION from people's person accounts. That's never ever been done in the history of free markets. Since the East Indian Tea Company started them. He also gave Obama tons of money for election. Would it be a surprise to learn he just bought a new multi 100 million dollar Yahat and a Greek island to part it at? He should be in prison. He's not, he's richer than ever. He will be given a slap on the wrist and let go.

    You cannot win by voting for one of their puppets. Why is this so hard to realize???

    The only way to build a rational moral social system is to start with agreed principles and build it up from there. As soon as you stop and say, oh well, we do need to steal in this situation, then you should know, logically, that this is not an ideal society. We obviously need free-markets and private property, we need educated non-violent people. I think we can all agree to that much??? What we also need is limited small government (as it's the only institution that can legally initiate force against the citizenry) and we need private money. Our own money. We must break from from these technocratic liars and thieves.

    0.01% of the population only came to own 80% of the entire wealth through the Central Banking cartel. The 99.9% are just there to Farm. You will not be free until you destroy the Central Bank. But, when that does happen (and, it will happen), don't be suckered by a demagogue. We will need to create a free non-violent society in order for society to work in the way you want it to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2012
  17. Balerion Banned Banned

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    8,596
    Taxation is not theft. You have representation in your government, so you have a say--albeit a small one--in how you are taxed. Start a movement, see if you can make change happen.
     
  18. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Tax is not theft, NOT paying your due tax is theft. You are using resorces paid for by everyone else which you feel you should get for free. Once again, tax is the fee required to be a part of society. No one is demanding you pay it but if you chose not to you have to leave because otherwise you are stealing from everyone else. The police, fire service, roads, water, garbage collection, parks, libaries, defence, governance, and everything else are benifits provided to members of the society and you think you should be able to access these without paying for them, ie your want to steal from society. You argue that somarlia property rights aren't respected, DUH!!!!! THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS NO SOCIETY, thats what everyone else already knows and you fail to realise. You remove governance you dont get a paradise, you get hell, the strong pick on the weak because there is no one to stop them. What exactly do you think the police and the courts DO all day? they minimise the amount of preditors who atack the society. You act like a spoiled child.
     
  19. adoucette Caca Occurs Valued Senior Member

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    Sure it's evidence.

    It's evidence that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

    The link points out that the FED LOANED out Trillions.

    That's a function of the FED.

    It all got paid back.

    Similarly the TARP funds have all been paid back by the big banks.

    With Interest.

    So NO Michael, the bailout of the banks didn't cost us Trillions.
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Wait now, let's be logical here.

    No one has a choice where they are born. If they provide a service, we'll say grow a tomato and sell it, taking their money IS theft. It doesn't matter if everyone agrees it's OK, it's not. It still must be theft. It's immoral because force was used to take the money or put the person in jail.


    You're so trapped into thinking we MUST have THIS society you just can't get that there just might be a better one around the corner.

    (1) I'm not arguing people don't pay anything. I'm suggesting that the fees for all these things you like (police, fire service, roads, water, garbage collection, parks, libaries) are paid for voluntarily and in a manner that is peaceful and does not require force.

    Why is that wrong??? Is it THAT hard to imagine a society where people pay as they go? Pay for use.

    Take the roads again. We pay for gasoline which has an additional tax that is used to maintain the roads. You ARE right now paying THAT fee IF you own a car and use it to drive on the roads. See? See how simple that was? Instead of taxing income, you're agreeing that the people that use the roads, pay. Which is what happens right now today.

    (2) This is also about making a logical argument. That argument being: Is it moral to initiate force against an innocent person? You seem to be saying it is moral. I think most people was say it isn't.

    Massive fraud has been perpetrated and not a single Banking thief has gone to jail. See, people like you point to crooks like Corzine and say: He's not in jail, therefor he didn't do anything wrong. While in reality 1.2 BILLION dollars were stolen right our of people's fricken accounts.

    See the difference.

    Sure, Saddam didn't do anything illegal. What's your point? When you own the government you literally get away with murder. Real murder. People have died because of bankers. Some have ODed because they lost their house. I read about a poor university girl who sold her virginity to some porn producers the other day. How many people have had their lives destroyed? Literally millions.

    Not a single banker crime boss has gone to jail.



    Think long and hard about what "money" is. According to you the USA could print of a single $20 Trillion Dollar note and *poof* the debt has been paid back. What planet are you from arthur? Do you have any idea how much shit was shoveled onto Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac? Until justice is done (which it won't be) we'll never know because so many people were conned into buying derivatives that were worthless. TARP is just one tip and huge iceberg these arsehole banks have ploughed us into. Only unlike on the Titanic there jerkoffs were happy to push woman and children into the ice depths to get an extra bit of legroom.

    Even CNN has a bailout tracker: HERE.
     
  21. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Simple the majority of society thinks "user pay" is unethical. That's what democracy is all about. Just like I will have to decide if I wish to live in a society which has the mad monk as PM if he wins the next election and my choice will be accept that is the choice of the majority of people in the majority of seats, or leave. You too have a choice, you don't like paying the fee that society demands that's fine, you can pay, you can steal those services and go to jail or you can leave and live where they don't have those fees and unsuprisingly don't have services either. These are your choices, suck it up princess. You vollenter to pay the fees when you chose to live in the society. This is a compleatly free choice and there is no violence or cohersion involved unless you concider not paying for your plane fair to be cohersion. Once you decide to live in a society your refusal to pay the fee is theft from the rest of that society, your stealing from every single other member of that society because they have to cover the reasonable fee you refuse to pay. That's immoral
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    There's nothing immoral about using force to make deadbeats pay their bills.
     
  23. Balerion Banned Banned

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    No, see, this is where you keep getting tripped up. No, it is not theft. Taxation is a necessary part of society, it makes things function. And just by definition, it isn't theft if everyone agrees with it. How I can steal what you're giving willingly?
     

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